My sister Thea Mason and I discuss the inherent and glorious differences between men and women, and how reverence for each other’s strengths and ways of being allows each one of us to reach our fullest potential––individually and as part of the whole.
Anne: 00:00 Record to the cloud. Hi Thea.
Thea: 00:02 Hello, Anne. Good to see you!
Anne: 00:06 And you. So, well, let’s be real here. We’ve had a lot going on in our lives. We both have. And are a bit distracted and there’s just, there’s a lot swirling and swimming, and we weren’t sure what we were gonna talk about here. There’s a lot we could get into. And we chatted some before we started recording and got to our fav, one of our favorite subjects, which is men, right? Which is men. And decided to just start to touch on this. We’ll try to make this one quite a short one and just, just get a taste right now and see where this leads us. But we talked, we talked, first of all about a comment thread that we were having on online where somebody, a friend of ours, was mentioning something about the length of these podcasts. And I made reference to how kind of windy we get in our conversations as women do, versus men who might be a bit more linear in the conversation. And I made some mention about, you know, that’s, that’s what we need men for to kind of, as you put it, bring it to the point. Right?
Anne: 01:38 And, and so we started talking about that, that the, the balance between men and women, the, the fact that women and men need each other to be, and to become, in the way––as my husband had articulated it recently––you can’t, did he say, “You can’t see the moon without the sun.” Right?
Thea: 02:15 Right. Precisely. Well, I’ll take it for a second. If that’s all right? It just sparked just that comment sparked a little bit for me. Being a pretty strong willed, strong and forceful woman myself in the world. You know, there’s, there’s something I think in our culture that I, I hear, you know, I see things, women posting, things about, you know, it’s not about finding your…the right knight or be your own knight or be, which is of course, true. Be your own best self. Become your own most fierce, compassionate, beautiful being you can be.
Thea: 03:08 But I still want to find that most beautiful and compassionate manly mirror to myself. And it doesn’t, that does not negate me becoming my best self, to find and look for that noble man who can stand strong and shine his bright sunshine into my moonshine.
Anne: 03:33 Yes! And to, to add to what you were saying like, okay, right. The spirit, we get the spirit of like, yeah, “Be your own knight.” Right? But what I think it’s meaning is find your own strength, right? To operate from. Don’t use someone else’s strength to fill that which you can develop in yourself. But…
Thea: 04:01 And that goes for men and women both because…no one’s happy that way.
Anne: 04:05 It goes for people, right? Right. Then that’s not balanced. But men and women are inherently different. The Sun is not the Moon.
Thea: 04:19 And the sun is constantly whole and bright. No matter if we see it or not.
Anne: 04:27 And the moon goes through her stages and the moon retreats to her inner world, she shows only parts of herself, right? At times. And then there are times, and as you pointed out there, there is a rhythm there. It is cyclical. She comes around and shows her full self, right? And meets him fully in that way. But the only way she can meet him fully is to be allowed to go inside, and go down her own paths of doing and being, which is not the sun’s way. But at the same time, the sun, like you pointed out, yes, he goes behind the clouds sometimes. Right? But he needs those, you know, he does it in a different way. I mean, it’s, that’s an external retreat rather than internal retreat. He’s still, he’s still there, that bright sun all the time and he can’t be expected to travel, to travel, to traverse those realms with her.
Anne: 05:53 She can’t expect that of him. She can’t expect him to…
Thea: 05:58 Be different than he is?
Anne: 06:00 Yeah! And! She must––in the way he must allow her to do her thing and travel her path, and also to cherish that path that she travels and regard it and honor it––she must do the same for him. While he shines bright and strong no matter what’s going on. That is, that is beautiful. And that is something to revere and give him credit for or whatever. Right? Go ahead.
Thea: 06:43 Well, and it’s something, it’s something that can be counted upon. You know, in saying, you know, we can’t expect the sun to, to act differently than the nature of the sun. And we can’t ask the moon to really behave differently than the nature of the moon. And when we do that, ask that, so being clear as man and woman, when we’re asking man and woman to behave differently than they inherently are given the rhythm of behaving, something becomes really distorted and lost and out of orbit in terms of the way they get to support one another and meet one another and all that they hold between their two spheres. You know, all of this world of reality that functions between the dynamic of man and woman or sun and moon, you know, that becomes distorted if these dynamics are distorted as well. And one of the thoughts I’ve had in thinking of the sun, you know, shining bright––on some days, it’s so piercingly bright and hot that you have to find shade. You need to take cover and adjust how you meet it, how, what, what of the sun can you take in today? You know? And some days you can take all of the sun and bask in it, you know, and bathe in it in all of its glory.
Thea: 08:12 And sometimes you can’t! And sometimes you need to create your own shade blanket because it’s too fierce or it’s, you know not soft enough. And that doesn’t mean that the sun doesn’t know how to go behind the clouds. Sometimes, you know, sometimes to give a little cover from its intensity or its piercing one-pointedness. Sometimes it has to become a little diffused, but that’s not constant. You know, it has to be able to move. I’m getting a little bit sideways, except I think it’s really just how can we as women, how can we honor that space of the sun? How can we honor that space of the man so that, that sun and that man can honor the space of the moon and the woman? That’s where it has to come from.
Anne: 09:07 Absolutely. And we’ll, we’ll probably decide to have a longer, more material conversation about that. But thoughts occurred to me like, you know, w we can’t we can’t expect them to––I mean, there’s the comics, the standup comics make all the jokes about this and everything––but we can’t expect them to be women. We can’t expect to have the same conversations that we have with our women friends. We can’t expect them to read us the way our female friends read us. We can’t expect them to speak our language. We can expect them to try to read it and decipher it best they can. But, you know, and I think of it like, you know, just, you know, the way we, we women process things the way we need to understand the world. I think we, you know, at least my own experience is, as I’ve gotten older, of course I’ve always had my, my great female girlfriends, but as I’ve gotten older, I’ve been able to recognize the depth and strength of and sacredness of those relationships separate than my male relationships. Equally significant. Right? but I’ve been able to, as I’ve gotten older, and maybe it’s, it’s kind of as one becomes more whole and is looking less to other people in the world to fulfill something in them. We’re able to regard, I’m sorry, let me just pause this for one moment. Okay. so, I sure think it’s, it’s important to recognize that those relationships are very different. They are just as important, but neither is more important. And they each have their time and place.
Thea: 11:34 Absolutely.
Anne: 11:36 And I had made a joke. Well, I, I’d responded to that comment where I’d said, you know, I think women, women need to get rid of the attitude and get back to gratitude a little bit in terms of the men bashing because the comment, yeah, the comment was “Wow. Women who like men?” Have I even talked about this in our recording? But like talking about “Women, women who like men? Wow. Can you believe that?” And I was saying that, you know, I’m, I’m in all seriousness, I’m a little sick of the men bashing. It’s just, you know, I have a son!
Thea: 12:15 I have three! Yeah.
Anne: 12:18 Exactly. And I don’t want to hear this right? We can hold people accountable without tearing them down. So…
Thea: 12:32 And if we don’t hold people accountable in a respectful way, we’re not going to get anything we want.
Anne: 12:40 And that’s the other thing I pointed out, which is how really just nonsensical and impractical it is. It’s like a relationship between a man and a woman, or really a relationship between anyone. Right? Unless you are planning to leave the relationship, then coming at it with blame and accusation gets us nowhere. The only thing that does get us somewhere is to find more and more effective ways of communicating our needs, our dissatisfactions, whatever it is, but also in a bolstering, supportive way and manner that allows that other person to see that you can see their best selves, so that they can rise to their best selves. And you know, one of the critical components to that is to allow that which they are to be strong and work with that. So.
Thea: 13:44 Because we can’t, because we can’t, I mean in my observations of my life and through friends, if we don’t ask for what we’re looking for or what we need and find ways towards building that, there’s, there’s no one to blame but ourselves. But we can, but we can guide those things. I mean, when you have a relationship that’s growing together, you know, you have to know when you have to put your oar in and you have to redirect something because it’s important.
Thea: 14:25 And if it’s not important, don’t keep going along, building resentment about it quietly until you explode and burn the whole thing to the ground. You know, if we’re not each from each side, man and woman, if you’re not investing in one another towards building a house together, that is one of both liking it, you know, then it’s like then you get angry and that’s what it seems like our culture is so much in, it’s like, how do we build the house together. It’s a, it’s been this building, building, building of quiet anger that’s now coming out with, you know, a fierce, irrational lashing. And burning it all to the ground when the reality is, and I think this hearkens back to our first conversation we recorded, women are the stewards of humankind, of, of humanity. And we are raising these boys to become men. Whose job is it? It’s ours as well as the fathers, but just simply out of biology, the fathers aren’t always around. And so if the woman is the one who’s in charge of that, if my young men grow up and they are not good men, that’s on me.
Anne: 15:45 Absolutely! I, can I, there’s something in this to flesh out later, but something that I’ve said long ago is…
Thea: 16:04 Sorry, I’ll turn my timer off again. So sorry.
Anne: 16:06 Okay. It’s your bread timer. Okay. Hold on. Like the typical woman you are. Let me pause the recording…Okay. So Thea is folding her dough right now while she, while she podcasts here. Someone I, I used to know who is no longer with us, but used to say you can get anything done in this world as long as you don’t take credit for it. Right? And that has stuck with me. And I have said since then that I feel that part of the problem between men and women is this newer need for women to get credit for the work they do. And which maybe is why there’s this pursuit of recognition in the field of men, in the realm of men. Because men are more out here, external, the work they do.
Thea: 17:09 Look at the sun!
Anne: 17:11 Exactly. The work they do is more measurable and quantifiable. Whereas the work we do, again like the moon, the inner work, but the inner work on, on the level of family, of children, of parenting, of being a wife to a husband, to being a woman, a supportive woman to a man and helping him navigate and maneuver in the world. We sometimes do that quietly behind the scenes. We are just as responsible for, for the result of it. Right? But we don’t, I feel it’s important that women remember that we don’t we don’t actually need the, the worldly recognition to that degree ’cause we know it. So anyway that’s so that’s all for another conversation. Let’s try to keep these a little shorter. This is food for thought for everyone. You know, I’d love it if people would chime in and, and bounce these ideas.
Thea: 18:13 Share their thoughts and ideas.
Anne: 18:13 ‘Cause There’s something, there’s something to this. So once again, thanks, Thea. We’ll do this again soon and have fun with the bread.
Thea: 18:23 Thanks very much.
Anne: 18:23 And hang on, let me just, let me end the recording and we’ll talk for a sec. Stop.