In a world full of pretense and artifice, we’ve been taught to look outside ourselves for answers. Let’s penetrate this false belief by reaching for the essence beyond the image.
Anne: 00:01 And we’re recording. Hi, Thea.
Thea: 00:03 Hello there.
Anne: 00:06 So we’re going to try to make this another quickie. And what, and I’ll, I’ll lead right in to where we’re going, I think. I was telling you before we started recording that my son, a couple of days ago, had asked for some advice. And the advice was at, at our homeschool park day, we have a variety of ages and, it was a new member park day too, so we had even more new people, new kids. There were a lot of youngers. And when I say youngers, I mean even younger than school age. So four year olds, five year olds. And he asked me, he said that he and one of his other homeschool buddies––they’re both about 11––were playing one-on-one basketball. And they were playing with my son’s ball and his friend’s ball was to the side.
Anne: 01:10 And this little girl, this four year old came over and she wanted to play with the ball and shoot baskets, join in with them. And they tried to I think redirect her, which didn’t work too well, and it sounds like in the end she grabbed the ball and was shooting hoops, trying to shoot hoops right in the midst of them playing. Right? So what to do, how to manage that. And I said, well, if your friend is okay with her playing with his ball, the thing to do is to say “If you bring your mom or dad, whomever’s there with you at the park over to supervise you, you can then go play at the other basket with this ball. We’ll allow you to do that. But we want someone watching you so you don’t get hurt.” And it led to a discussion about boundaries and about the fact that what I find is that we are often helping people, children reminding them that there are boundaries. That we, we are helping children establish boundaries. And really, ultimately we are helping parents be parents, I find a lot these days. Because I explained to my son, the parent should have been there. The parent should have been aware of where their four year old was if the four-year-old is not capable of recognizing that there is something going on here that they need to respect and not intrude upon. The parent needs to be there, and the parent wasn’t there. Right?
Thea: 03:00 Right. And can I jump in here? And then there’s that part where the 11 year old boys have that opportunity to say, “Hey we see you want to play, but we’ve got a game going on. So you can sit and watch for a little while, ’cause we don’t want to knock you over ’cause we might be getting a little rough. You know. So there’s that, that teaching moment that comes for those young children to teach a younger and that’s how, that’s part of that village picture too. You know, if the parent isn’t available or isn’t around, ’cause that’s what, that’s what they would do if it was their younger sibling. Like “No, sorry you can’t play. We’re already playing and we don’t want to have to totally alter our experience right now.” And then there are those times where, I mean I, in terms of those kind of social dynamics where you know, my boys ranging eight years, you know, they would go down to the park and shoot hoops and then other kids in the neighborhood would join in. And there is something that’s just so beautiful about that ability to play safely with those varying degrees, which we’ve talked about in various conversations about the youngest being the oldest, sometimes. The oldest being the, you know, the different roles they get to inhabit.
Thea: 04:22 And then I can recall in the early days of my eldest, when I had time to spend at the park at that time, those experiences of meeting other children and parents and, and those social things, that’s a learning sphere right there for new parents. And I remember sensing that nobody really knows what the rules are. There aren’t any rules here. And how do we find our way and shape and hold this for our children, right? Because there’d be some people who would bring toys. There’d be some people here. And so are we expecting them all to share? What works out here? And then there is that step as a parent where one comes into, “these are my rules and this is how we’re going to do it.” Right? And then that lets the kids know where they are too, you know? And so other parents, as long as people are civil and courteous with one another, everyone can know where everyone is and can respect those spaces. But that doesn’t happen until someone steps up and says, Hey, this really isn’t appropriate for you right now, four year old. Dear sweet child, you can come sit over here and watch. You know, but no one knows until someone says something.
Anne: 05:48 Right! And, and so and what we’ve talked about, like you’re saying here and we talked about in the past is that there is an extreme lack, I think of parents knowing to step up and say that. And, and so what you and I have talked about throughout many of our talks, we’ve talked about resilience, we’ve talked about autonomy. We have talked about boundaries spacial dynamics, spacial relationships, respect breeding, you know, begetting resilience, right? And it comes down to, what we were talking about earlier this morning, is claiming your authority. This needs to be worked on. People need to be empowered to reclaim or claim their authority, their authority as grownups, their authority, as parents, their authority, as people as empowered individuals.
Thea: 06:51 Individuals, yeah. I mean claiming one’s authority as an individual. And we were just talking about that a little bit in terms of the reclaiming of that authority of the individual throughout our broader culture in society. We see that as a trend of lack of real authority figures, you know, standing tall. I’m sorry, I kinda got a little sidetracked, but also that’s what’s necessary for true relationship. Right? Because that’s self responsibility. To really claim my authority in my life, in my sphere. That comes from me being responsible for myself, recognizing what I’m responsible for and who I’m responsible for.
Anne: 07:46 Yeah. And trusting one’s compass, I think. And what we talked about a little bit is that, I mean, again, I am 48 going on 49, you know, we’re both in our forties. How old are you? I always forget.
Thea: 08:04 I’ll be 43 this month.
Anne: 08:06 Right. So it has taken me certainly to my forties, to feel very comfortable with my authority. And you know, and I reflect on this. It’s like, I do think it’s a societal thing. I think that it is certainly a product of our educational system. And many other things. I think intentionally it is cultivating a culture of people who look outside themselves to know what to do to look to experts and authorities that are not them. Right? Whether it is, I mean, we have, we have experts in every realm. All walks, people pay experts for everything. People won’t do things because, until their doctor tells them to. People won’t make choices and instinctively act in certain ways without their lawyer’s advice and, and on and on and on. Right? So I think we all have to work through that to come out the other side and recognize that WE are our best authority. But what I think has really emerged from that culture is this lack of parental authority, too, right? And lack of individual authority in relationships, in marriages. Also people going to their shrinks. You know, spouses who have problems. They, you know, they won’t talk about their problems without a counselor or therapist leading them lead them through it. Right? This is not the way to go. Right? This is, this is, this is false belief. That’s a foundation of false belief.
Thea: 09:55 Yes. Whew!
Anne: 09:56 So, you know, in brief, we, you know, we’ve got just a few minutes, let’s discuss what steps we can take to cultivate that for people, for ourselves, for our children. And, and one last thing, just to give you a little something to think about is, I honestly have learned a great deal about that from you. You’re my six years younger sister, right? But I grew up being the people pleaser, the parent pleaser. I was the oldest. I didn’t take my own risks that I felt worth taking until I was much older than you did when you were taking your risks, I think. I did what I was supposed to do, right? So it took me a lot longer. And then you had children before I did. And so I got to look to you as a model, because I saw what incredible kids you have. You’ve done an amazing job. If anyone knows her kids, I mean they’re remarkable, extraordinary human beings. And with such a sense of themselves, other people as they maneuver and navigate through the world. So you’ve, you’ve really helped me in that way. So I kind of look to you to impart some words of wisdom, I suppose.
Thea: 11:24 Well, that’s very generous in that. I think that there are some things that we all have helped each other, you know, see, for sure. And when we were talking about this a little bit previous, I think it came out of a remark when I was reflecting on what my work. What essentially I do for my work is really help to teach young people what it means to respect themselves and others. That’s what we touch in upon in relationship. So we can’t really have relationship until we learn where one is and where the other is––until we learn how those two spaces can meet and separate in a respectful way. And I mean that’s the work I’m continuing to do in my own life for sure. But in terms of this sort of work and, and then that sparked this reflection of something that happened in the playground because these are social games that I bring to young people. And so in those social spheres, that’s where we learn. We learn by messing up, and then we learn by trying it again. We learn that what I said wasn’t clear. And so I have to say it again in a more clear way. I don’t know if that’s bringing a pointed example, but I do also feel like this is one other part to share with this. I remember one of my parenting mentors, Misty––cause she had a daughter eight years older than our children––and I remember her saying, “Don’t say ‘NO’ unless you mean it, but say it when you mean it.” And I feel like I’ve seen that in our culture––there’s a lot of resistance to using absolutes, “NOs”, you know, “this is a boundary you cannot cross.” But then when people do use it, they’re using it and not backing it up, without following through, which makes “NO” mean nothing, you know.
Anne: 13:47 Because they actually don’t know really what requires the “NO” or doesn’t. And that gets back to, gosh, it makes me even think about the whole, that’s a whole other discussion too, but in terms of the relationship between men and women and “no means no.” It’s like no, it’s not just language. You know, you have to truly know what feels right and what feels wrong. And when something feels wrong, it’s, you know, act upon it. When something feels right, act upon it.
Thea: 14:26 Yeah. And it’s the recognizing, yes, that the language is like the 10% of our communication. I don’t know if there’s some study. But everything that’s behind it is what people are responding to. And I think we’ve talked about that a little bit in different things here––when we’re trying to create rules that are just material or just arbitrary, they fail. They mean nothing. And so we now look at where we are, and a lot of it is due to that, I think, you know.
Anne: 15:08 And I’m just sparking right now. I’ve been sensing this and this is where I see it. It relates to artifice and pretense. You have brought this up a couple of times recently where, what did you say? It’s about the image as opposed to substance?
Thea: 15:28 Yeah, things get caught up into the image rather than the essence. So much. I mean, I remember talking about this years and years back when we talked about, you know, different realms that I’ve lived in, you know, and where the substance, the essence seems to be lost and people just grab onto the image. The artificial, the material things that represent the image of the essence.
Anne: 15:55 The trappings. Yes. And we’re going to actually wrap it up pretty soon, but basically, it makes me think of just like, like this: I mean, you know, we’re not made up, makeup, all that. Right? It’s like, I was telling my husband this, that like, as time has gone on in my life, perhaps as I have lived and forged more of myself, I have a harder and harder time indulging or engaging in anything like that. It feels so unreal, somehow. Putting make-up on, even. Right?
Thea: 16:37 Pointless.
Anne: 16:37 Yeah. so there’s that. Same with, I remember years and years and years ago, in my 20s, starting to have this sense of people in my adult life––as I was encountering adults, I would recognize that some people seemed, or a lot of people seemed like they were pretending to be grownups. They would say things that sounded to me like things they had heard that they think sounds grown up, but I could tell they weren’t really grownups. Right? So it’s all wrapped up in that similar thing of artifice, pretense, academic learning, abstract learning versus knowing this. Right? So there’s, there’s so much of that that we have to explore in another conversation.
Thea: 17:26 We will, and I have to say one more thing before we close it, because there’s something here. I’m gonna try to be really brief, but there’s something in the image. Because I think when you’re talking like that––of people that you would see that would be acting like they were grownups, right? Imitation. And so that, that draws me to the young child. They learn through imitation. We learn through imitation, but it has to then translate. It has to evolve into the being. It has to evolve into the beingness of the essence. But what we’re seeing in our culture so much is that it, it circles and circles and circles around in the image. Into the image imitation rather than it dropping into the essence and then the evolution. There’s something there for us to go more with next time. But that has something to do with the inability to step into true authority. Because if you are functioning in this artifice, this image, and you’re only in the imitation––which is a process! Part of that is necessary. Right? I mean, I think of, when I’ve learned to teach, who do I sound like? My teacher. Until I digest it and it’s become myself and then I’m me. So it’s a process.
Anne: 18:54 Right. We model, we model and then learn, right? We model and try things out. Until we embrace or discard what doesn’t work for us. Right? But we seem to be caught in this cycle of imitation and pretense and fear.
Thea: 19:10 And the appearance.
Anne: 19:10 The appearance. Where the appearance is so important, as opposed to the truth. Truth! And substance.
Thea: 19:19 Substance and truth. Yeah.
Anne: 19:21 Which is messy too. So.
Thea: 19:22 Oh, and but, but so clean. The substance and the truth is clean because everything else falls off of it. But let’s stop there.
Anne: 19:35 Yeah. I get it. Yeah. This one’s a teaser, it’s a teaser, so, all right. Well, we’ll go from that and talk a little bit about this before we go to our next deeper one following on this. Okay. Thank you.
Thea: 19:49 Thanks so much. Be true.
Anne: 19:54 Be true. All right.
Girls – lol.
Girls who’ve grown up––and hopefully continue growing––into women:)
Always a pleasure, ladies.
Thanks so much, Tim!
As a counselor and therapist, I have to add that I believe the role play of helping people learn to set boundaries in a safe supportive non judgmental atmosphere truly helps people learn to apply it in their daily lives and claim there own authority easier. I have helped many clients do exactly such a thing and I do not believe it is false beliefs to use therapy as a tool to help individuals grow into their own power. Anne says “They, you know, they won’t talk about their problems without a counselor or therapist leading them lead them through it. Right? This is not the way to go. Right? This is, this is, this is false belief. That’s a foundation of false belief.” I disagree wholeheartedly and feel that therapy is an incredible tool to help people lead authentic and empowered lives.
Thanks for your comment, Ben. I agree with you that therapy can be a powerful tool to help people work through trauma, issues, come to a more objective awareness about themselves and their patterns, raise their consciousness and more. I have benefited from therapy, myself. I may not have articulated my point as well as I would have liked, but the foundation of false belief I refer to is the notion that others know better than ourselves. That the judgment or opinion or advice of “experts” and outside practitioners, authorities, professionals should carry more weight than our own inner knowing and intuitive and instinctive senses.
I believe that therapists can very much assist us in our growing, our seeking, our healing. But I wholeheartedly believe that WE must lead that effort, not give others the reins, in the matter of our own individual unfolding, growing, healing. We ARE our best guides. Though we also need help along the way.
But I stand by my statement that it is NOT the way to go for couples to not talk about their problems without a counselor or therapist leading them through it. If a couple gets to a point of being unable to do that, I support the decision to seek outside help to bring them back to that point, or to bring them to that point for the first time, perhaps. But that should be a temporary solution, which can be returned to from time to time. The goal must ALWAYS be to get the couple or individual or family, etc., to a point of being able to navigate and discern and communicate on their own, without the help of a therapist of counselor. And to learn to trust their own internal compass and become their own authority, and to rely more on their own sense about things more than any outside authority or expert. We should all be open to trusted and experienced advice and guidance, both from professionals and friends and family. But, ultimately, we must be able to make and trust the final decisions about any of our actions, words, direction and deeds. I’m sure you’d agree.