Hi everyone. It’s been another wild week after a wild year. Wild several weeks. Who knows what wild weeks we’ll see ahead of us, but we want to do a very brief chat here and talk about what we can do about that, what to do about that and how do we navigate? And you and I were sharing, Thea, a few quotes that were resonating with us recently. So why don’t you start with one you’ve got.
Thea (00:43):
Yep. So you know “Lord of the Rings” being one of my favorite stories ever, through our conversations, I was reminded of when Gandalf says, I believe it’s to Frodo when Frodo sort of can’t believe that he can make a difference. How can someone so small make a difference? And Gandalf said, “Some believe that it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I’ve found. I have found it is the small things every day deeds by ordinary folk that keeps the darkness at bay.”
Anne (01:29):
And following on that, at least the way I see––so I’m a member of the Association for Research and Enlightenment, which is the Edgar Casey Institute, Edgar Casey having been what they call “The Sleeping Prophet.” One of the quotes I love in the recent magazine that was sent to me is, “Peace must begin within self before there can come action or self-application in a way to bring peace––even in thy own household, in thine own vicinity, in thine own state or nation.”
Anne (02:23):
And there’s one other quote, “Embedded in the tiny everyday choices that beckon toward kindness and love is the essence of the Casey work: our oneness with God, our highest self, our oneness with each other.” This is from an article written by Leslie and Corinne Casey. And “We souls have a sacred charge to turn toward others, to serve, to cultivate loving compassion.”
Anne (02:54):
And following on all of that, I want to advise and reassure folks that it really works. It really works to meditate, to pray, to cultivate in our individual spheres a harmony. And that harmony rays out, like you say, Thea. It rays out. And I find that when I do that, even in these tumultuous times and these tumultuous weeks, as I’ve been putting my intention toward that just a few minutes a day, it is flowing. My reality and life experience is flowing beautifully. Harmoniously, abundantly, positively. And connections are being made with others in beautiful and wondrous ways. And I do believe that this is a message that we’re getting from many angles from people who are more tapped in than I am, in terms of having been practicing this for a long time and even more tapped into these universal truths. What I see is that there is a lot of––I see it all as kind of fakery when we watch all that’s going on in the large, macro scale. And that can be anxiety producing if we really get caught up in it. We have control over ourselves and this sphere. We have control over what we focus on. We have control over our thoughts and our energies, where we are putting our energy. That’s what we have control over. We have control over how we choose to respond to the world.
Thea (05:16):
Well, and with that, I would just simply add, a teacher of mine––I believe I may not quote him precisely––but says, “Where we put our attention is where we are.” And so, that simplified is this opportunity where we’re out in the world, in the media world, in actions, in the world, there is so much that is disturbing and we must guard our own spaces in such a way that we do not become disturbed as we see and hear in the broader sphere. Because we have to do the work to shine clear and bright in order to help to transform outward throughout the world.
Anne (06:14):
Right. It’s almost more important than ever when it seems very chaotic out there for us to be even more grounded and centered and stay the course in order to bring it back into balance. Not be led by that, but we will lead it in each of our individual ways. And I don’t know if I said this on camera already, or we talked about it beforehand, but I kind of visualize it as if it’s, you know, billions of spheres of light all over the earth surface. Of each of us harmonizing in this beautiful light. If we’re all doing that, how can that not be transformative? How can that not be incredibly powerful? That will transform, that will create the world that we’re being ushered into and ushering in.
Thea (07:19):
I think just those two places of it––ushering in and being ushered into––so they are going along with one another and there’s a relationship there. And so there is responsibility, a lot of self responsibility to take steps and choose the movements we want to bring into the world with intention, and with a state of being that is not a victim to the world.
Anne (07:57):
And it seems as if we have this opportunity now to consciously choose what aspects of our being and managing and existing we want to carry in with us to this new world and what we may want to leave behind too. And almost everyone I’ve spoken with, including myself, have been finding the need to be doing a lot of deep inner work, to recognize patterns that have not served us, that don’t serve us and pave the way and create new patterns that will serve us. And as they serve us, they will serve all of us. So that’s another focusI think right now to have. To identify what’s negative in our coping mechanisms and transform them into positive mechanisms of being and ways of being and interacting.
Thea (09:08):
Well and the sort of a visual that comes to my mind, as you say, that is, as you talk about spheres, these spheres of light, those habits that are grooved into place that don’t serve us or others are sort of shadowy, right? The grooves are shadowy. So there’s some space that doesn’t have the light shining so clearly. And so in the midst of that conscientious, thoughtful work of recognizing patterns and shifting them, even filling them with light is helpful. Even if we can’t quite name the pattern, or we can’t quite say where it comes from, sometimes just filling it up with the light will be helpful and effective.
Anne (10:12):
Because when we shine light on something, we can bring more consciousness to it. And then it becomes clearer to us to identify
Thea (10:19):
And it can change. You know, those are the parts. Even if we’re not able to yet be exactly what we wish to be, if we can make a choice to change something, that enables us to have a sense of freedom to be able to enact a shift. And that’s part of what we’re in right now in time in the world, it seems as well.
Anne (10:46):
I agree. And so with that, do you want to do it on this one or shall we stop this recording and set up?
Thea (10:56):
I think I have to move, and I don’t quite have a space yet, but there is a brief exercise that is a Spatial Dynamics exercise. And it’s one that can be helpful to recognizing the light that shines from within us and the light that shines outside of us as well, and the way in which we can connect with the broader world through our own individual work and gesture.
Anne (11:30):
Okay. And so I love this idea that Thea and I have been talking about, her putting some movements together for me, maybe a few other folks that we know that we can use as,, I was calling it an anchor Thea, but you would call it
Thea (11:46):
Oh what did I say? It was really good. I can’t remember.
Anne (11:53):
It’s a tangible…so in my recommendation that everyone take five minutes when they get up in the morning and don’t get on the phone, don’t get on the computer. Sit with your cup of coffee or tea or whatever it is. Look out the window, look at the wall, look at a beautiful plant.
Thea (12:13):
A candle, if it’s very dark where you are when you awake.
Anne (12:19):
Exactly, a candle. And take five minutes in some form of meditation and stillness and quiet with oneself, with some positive energy focused. And whether that’s in prayer, affirmation, simply meditation…
Thea (12:43):
And movement can be a meditation as well. The way in which we move with intention.
Anne (12:51):
And so she is going to record this movement for me and for all of you to use, to accompany that and to incorporate as part of your very quick, nice, powerful, and positive way to start the day.
Thea (13:08):
And I would add that in the evening before bed is also as powerful a time as the morning. Both, if you can swing it. I think before bed is very powerful because you then take whatever that is that you have stepped into or created in those couple minutes, you take that into your sleep, which is hours of sleep. So a lot can be done in that space. If you go into it with a mindfulness or an intentional something. So, you know, having good habits in the evening are also a really nice place to make a shift.
Anne (13:56):
Thanks for that reminder. Okay. Well, so again, we’ll post this, we’ll end this recording, and then I will post the link to this short movement video that Thea is going to provide us in the same post on the Sacred Osiris page post. Okay. I love you. Love you all.
In a world full of pretense and artifice, we’ve been taught to look outside ourselves for answers. Let’s penetrate this false belief by reaching for the essence beyond the image.
TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Anne: 00:01 And we’re recording. Hi,
Thea.
Thea: 00:03 Hello there.
Anne: 00:06 So we’re going to try to
make this another quickie. And what, and I’ll, I’ll lead right in to where
we’re going, I think. I was telling you before we started recording that my
son, a couple of days ago, had asked for some advice. And the advice was at, at
our homeschool park day, we have a variety of ages and, it was a new member
park day too, so we had even more new people, new kids. There were a lot of
youngers. And when I say youngers, I mean even younger than school age. So four
year olds, five year olds. And he asked me, he said that he and one of his
other homeschool buddies––they’re both about 11––were playing one-on-one
basketball. And they were playing with my son’s ball and his friend’s ball was
to the side.
Anne: 01:10 And this little girl,
this four year old came over and she wanted to play with the ball and shoot
baskets, join in with them. And they tried to I think redirect her, which
didn’t work too well, and it sounds like in the end she grabbed the ball and
was shooting hoops, trying to shoot hoops right in the midst of them playing.
Right? So what to do, how to manage that. And I said, well, if your friend is
okay with her playing with his ball, the thing to do is to say “If you
bring your mom or dad, whomever’s there with you at the park over to supervise
you, you can then go play at the other basket with this ball. We’ll allow you
to do that. But we want someone watching you so you don’t get hurt.” And
it led to a discussion about boundaries and about the fact that what I find is
that we are often helping people, children reminding them that there are
boundaries. That we, we are helping children establish boundaries. And really,
ultimately we are helping parents be parents, I find a lot these days. Because
I explained to my son, the parent should have been there. The parent should
have been aware of where their four year old was if the four-year-old is not
capable of recognizing that there is something going on here that they need to
respect and not intrude upon. The parent needs to be there, and the parent
wasn’t there. Right?
Thea: 03:00 Right. And can I jump in
here? And then there’s that part where the 11 year old boys have that
opportunity to say, “Hey we see you want to play, but we’ve got a game
going on. So you can sit and watch for a little while, ’cause we don’t want to
knock you over ’cause we might be getting a little rough. You know. So there’s
that, that teaching moment that comes for those young children to teach a
younger and that’s how, that’s part of that village picture too. You know, if
the parent isn’t available or isn’t around, ’cause that’s what, that’s what
they would do if it was their younger sibling. Like “No, sorry you can’t
play. We’re already playing and we don’t want to have to totally alter our
experience right now.” And then there are those times where, I mean I, in
terms of those kind of social dynamics where you know, my boys ranging eight
years, you know, they would go down to the park and shoot hoops and then other
kids in the neighborhood would join in. And there is something that’s just so
beautiful about that ability to play safely with those varying degrees, which
we’ve talked about in various conversations about the youngest being the
oldest, sometimes. The oldest being the, you know, the different roles they get
to inhabit.
Thea: 04:22 And then I can recall in
the early days of my eldest, when I had time to spend at the park at that time,
those experiences of meeting other children and parents and, and those social
things, that’s a learning sphere right there for new parents. And I remember
sensing that nobody really knows what the rules are. There aren’t any rules
here. And how do we find our way and shape and hold this for our children,
right? Because there’d be some people who would bring toys. There’d be some
people here. And so are we expecting them all to share? What works out here?
And then there is that step as a parent where one comes into, “these are
my rules and this is how we’re going to do it.” Right? And then that lets
the kids know where they are too, you know? And so other parents, as long as
people are civil and courteous with one another, everyone can know where
everyone is and can respect those spaces. But that doesn’t happen until someone
steps up and says, Hey, this really isn’t appropriate for you right now, four
year old. Dear sweet child, you can come sit over here and watch. You know, but
no one knows until someone says something.
Anne: 05:48 Right! And, and so and
what we’ve talked about, like you’re saying here and we talked about in the
past is that there is an extreme lack, I think of parents knowing to step up
and say that. And, and so what you and I have talked about throughout many of
our talks, we’ve talked about resilience, we’ve talked about autonomy. We have
talked about boundaries spacial dynamics, spacial relationships, respect
breeding, you know, begetting resilience, right? And it comes down to, what we
were talking about earlier this morning, is claiming your authority. This needs
to be worked on. People need to be empowered to reclaim or claim their
authority, their authority as grownups, their authority, as parents, their
authority, as people as empowered individuals.
Thea: 06:51 Individuals, yeah. I mean
claiming one’s authority as an individual. And we were just talking about that
a little bit in terms of the reclaiming of that authority of the individual
throughout our broader culture in society. We see that as a trend of lack of
real authority figures, you know, standing tall. I’m sorry, I kinda got a
little sidetracked, but also that’s what’s necessary for true relationship.
Right? Because that’s self responsibility. To really claim my authority in my
life, in my sphere. That comes from me being responsible for myself,
recognizing what I’m responsible for and who I’m responsible for.
Anne: 07:46 Yeah. And trusting one’s
compass, I think. And what we talked about a little bit is that, I mean, again,
I am 48 going on 49, you know, we’re both in our forties. How old are you? I
always forget.
Thea: 08:04 I’ll be 43 this month.
Anne: 08:06 Right. So it has taken me
certainly to my forties, to feel very comfortable with my authority. And you
know, and I reflect on this. It’s like, I do think it’s a societal thing. I
think that it is certainly a product of our educational system. And many other
things. I think intentionally it is cultivating a culture of people who look
outside themselves to know what to do to look to experts and authorities that are
not them. Right? Whether it is, I mean, we have, we have experts in every
realm. All walks, people pay experts for everything. People won’t do things
because, until their doctor tells them to. People won’t make choices and
instinctively act in certain ways without their lawyer’s advice and, and on and
on and on. Right? So I think we all have to work through that to come out the
other side and recognize that WE are our best authority. But what I think has
really emerged from that culture is this lack of parental authority, too,
right? And lack of individual authority in relationships, in marriages. Also
people going to their shrinks. You know, spouses who have problems. They, you
know, they won’t talk about their problems without a counselor or therapist leading
them lead them through it. Right? This is not the way to go. Right? This is,
this is, this is false belief. That’s a foundation of false belief.
Thea: 09:55 Yes. Whew!
Anne: 09:56 So, you know, in brief,
we, you know, we’ve got just a few minutes, let’s discuss what steps we can
take to cultivate that for people, for ourselves, for our children. And, and
one last thing, just to give you a little something to think about is, I
honestly have learned a great deal about that from you. You’re my six years younger
sister, right? But I grew up being the people pleaser, the parent pleaser. I
was the oldest. I didn’t take my own risks that I felt worth taking until I was
much older than you did when you were taking your risks, I think. I did what I
was supposed to do, right? So it took me a lot longer. And then you had
children before I did. And so I got to look to you as a model, because I saw
what incredible kids you have. You’ve done an amazing job. If anyone knows her
kids, I mean they’re remarkable, extraordinary human beings. And with such a
sense of themselves, other people as they maneuver and navigate through the
world. So you’ve, you’ve really helped me in that way. So I kind of look to you
to impart some words of wisdom, I suppose.
Thea: 11:24 Well, that’s very
generous in that. I think that there are some things that we all have helped
each other, you know, see, for sure. And when we were talking about this a
little bit previous, I think it came out of a remark when I was reflecting on
what my work. What essentially I do for my work is really help to teach young
people what it means to respect themselves and others. That’s what we touch in
upon in relationship. So we can’t really have relationship until we learn where
one is and where the other is––until we learn how those two spaces can meet and
separate in a respectful way. And I mean that’s the work I’m continuing to do
in my own life for sure. But in terms of this sort of work and, and then that
sparked this reflection of something that happened in the playground because
these are social games that I bring to young people. And so in those social
spheres, that’s where we learn. We learn by messing up, and then we learn by
trying it again. We learn that what I said wasn’t clear. And so I have to say it
again in a more clear way. I don’t know if that’s bringing a pointed example,
but I do also feel like this is one other part to share with this. I remember
one of my parenting mentors, Misty––cause she had a daughter eight years older
than our children––and I remember her saying, “Don’t say ‘NO’ unless you
mean it, but say it when you mean it.” And I feel like I’ve seen that in
our culture––there’s a lot of resistance to using absolutes, “NOs”,
you know, “this is a boundary you cannot cross.” But then when people
do use it, they’re using it and not backing it up, without following through,
which makes “NO” mean nothing, you know.
Anne: 13:47 Because they actually
don’t know really what requires the “NO” or doesn’t. And that gets
back to, gosh, it makes me even think about the whole, that’s a whole other
discussion too, but in terms of the relationship between men and women and
“no means no.” It’s like no, it’s not just language. You know, you
have to truly know what feels right and what feels wrong. And when something
feels wrong, it’s, you know, act upon it. When something feels right, act upon
it.
Thea: 14:26 Yeah. And it’s the
recognizing, yes, that the language is like the 10% of our communication. I
don’t know if there’s some study. But everything that’s behind it is what
people are responding to. And I think we’ve talked about that a little bit in
different things here––when we’re trying to create rules that are just material
or just arbitrary, they fail. They mean nothing. And so we now look at where we
are, and a lot of it is due to that, I think, you know.
Anne: 15:08 And I’m just sparking
right now. I’ve been sensing this and this is where I see it. It relates to
artifice and pretense. You have brought this up a couple of times recently
where, what did you say? It’s about the image as opposed to substance?
Thea: 15:28 Yeah, things get caught
up into the image rather than the essence. So much. I mean, I remember talking
about this years and years back when we talked about, you know, different
realms that I’ve lived in, you know, and where the substance, the essence seems
to be lost and people just grab onto the image. The artificial, the material
things that represent the image of the essence.
Anne: 15:55 The trappings. Yes. And
we’re going to actually wrap it up pretty soon, but basically, it makes me
think of just like, like this: I mean, you know, we’re not made up, makeup, all
that. Right? It’s like, I was telling my husband this, that like, as time has
gone on in my life, perhaps as I have lived and forged more of myself, I have a
harder and harder time indulging or engaging in anything like that. It feels so
unreal, somehow. Putting make-up on, even. Right?
Thea: 16:37 Pointless.
Anne: 16:37 Yeah. so there’s that.
Same with, I remember years and years and years ago, in my 20s, starting to
have this sense of people in my adult life––as I was encountering adults, I
would recognize that some people seemed, or a lot of people seemed like they
were pretending to be grownups. They would say things that sounded to me like
things they had heard that they think sounds grown up, but I could tell they
weren’t really grownups. Right? So it’s all wrapped up in that similar thing of
artifice, pretense, academic learning, abstract learning versus knowing this.
Right? So there’s, there’s so much of that that we have to explore in another
conversation.
Thea: 17:26 We will, and I have to
say one more thing before we close it, because there’s something here. I’m
gonna try to be really brief, but there’s something in the image. Because I
think when you’re talking like that––of people that you would see that would be
acting like they were grownups, right? Imitation. And so that, that draws me to
the young child. They learn through imitation. We learn through imitation, but
it has to then translate. It has to evolve into the being. It has to evolve
into the beingness of the essence. But what we’re seeing in our culture so much
is that it, it circles and circles and circles around in the image. Into the
image imitation rather than it dropping into the essence and then the
evolution. There’s something there for us to go more with next time. But that
has something to do with the inability to step into true authority. Because if
you are functioning in this artifice, this image, and you’re only in the
imitation––which is a process! Part of that is necessary. Right? I mean, I
think of, when I’ve learned to teach, who do I sound like? My teacher. Until I
digest it and it’s become myself and then I’m me. So it’s a process.
Anne: 18:54 Right. We model, we model
and then learn, right? We model and try things out. Until we embrace or discard
what doesn’t work for us. Right? But we seem to be caught in this cycle of
imitation and pretense and fear.
Thea: 19:10 And the appearance.
Anne: 19:10 The appearance. Where the
appearance is so important, as opposed to the truth. Truth! And substance.
Thea: 19:19 Substance and truth.
Yeah.
Anne: 19:21 Which is messy too. So.
Thea: 19:22 Oh, and but, but so
clean. The substance and the truth is clean because everything else falls off
of it. But let’s stop there.
Anne: 19:35 Yeah. I get it. Yeah.
This one’s a teaser, it’s a teaser, so, all right. Well, we’ll go from that and
talk a little bit about this before we go to our next deeper one following on
this. Okay. Thank you.
My sister Thea Mason and I discuss material examples of Benign Neglect––both in parenting and in relationships, with others and with oneself––which demonstrate respect and cultivate resilience. Which leads to empowerment.
Transcript below:
Anne: 00:01 Okay. Hi, Thea.
Thea: 00:03 Hi there, Anne. Good to
see you.
Anne: 00:06 Good to see you too. So
starting this again. So this conversation we’re gonna talk, going to follow on
last week’s conversation, which was about Benign Neglect as an approach to
parenting, as an approach to all of our relationships, in order to encourage
everyone to be resilient, right,? To, to help cultivate resilience, to help us
grow our resilience. So, and so we want to talk about some material examples of
that, both in parenting and in relationships. And I’m going to let you start
with that.
Thea: 00:52 So last conversation we
had touched on a very early stage of development physically for a young child,
being that they pushed up onto their hands and knees in the pursuit of movement
and crawling and independence. And we were discussing a little…
Anne: 01:12 Wait, wait. Can I just
interrupt? And, and that most parents know instinctively to not assist that,
because it’s so critical in them exercising those muscles in order to be able
to do that. Because if we do it for them, they won’t exercise those muscles.
Thea: 01:32 Right. I mean, and you
have pictures of that in all of nature, right? I mean, one most everyone is
familiar with is the caterpillar pushing, struggling out of the Chrysalis or it
a chick hatching out. So if you, if you disturb that process, they are weakened
and therefore cannot actually survive. So that’s a little, you know, picture.
And as human beings, we have so many more varied and complex stages of these
opportunities of the possibility to build resilience or to be hindered and
crippled, essentially, for the way we meet the world. And so we were talking
about, you know, some, some natural things that occur when children are young.
And some of the things we were discussing, and from my experience and I’m sure
yours in parenting, you know, as children start to develop freedom and then
they want to climb the tree and they want to get to that branch. And sometimes
as parents we want to support them and be there to help assist them into those
places. And I think through learning we find that if you are to assist past a
point where someone is ready to carry themselves, you’re actually putting them
in danger because a child will only climb to that which they can climb down
from and get down from. Right? because they know they made it up, they can make
it down. And if you’ve put someone there without their own striving and faith
in their own ability, then there’s a fear lock. Right? And then they cannot
quite do it. So that was one other example. I don’t know if you want to speak
to that or…
Anne: 03:21 No, I mean I think that’s
a perfect example. And, and the word that came to mind was, if we put people
somewhere prematurely, right? They, they really have to get there themselves in
order to then be able to jump to the next, and the next, and the next, I
think.To build the foundation. Right?
Thea: 03:43 Absolutely. And another
place that I see that in a really practical way out of the work I do and, and
my history with my children is, is a swing. Moving on a swing takes its own
impulse and will, or rhythmic movement of pushing and pulling oneself where
they want to go. So those were just two very tangible, in terms of the
development of the human being in pursuit of freedom and fun.
Anne: 04:18 And, you know, and, and,
and another one that just occurred to me I remember when we’d go to the beach
together when our kids were younger and I would be like, oh, I forgot the
shovel, or I forgot the buckets and shovels. And you said, here are their
shovels, right? And I adopted that approach more across the board. Less props,
less props, less toys, less things. And out of that, I would see wonderful
projects being conceived and dams being built and holes being dug and in, in,
in, in wonderful ways. Right? And, and doing that more and more reinforces that
with our kids.
Thea: 05:06 And builds, and also
builds a space of more ease as a parent. You know, I mean, that’s the other
part that it doesn’t have to be so busy or fraught with details. And can be a
little bit more pleasant.
Anne: 05:25 Well, and you’re, you’re
much more fluid when you are living and approaching everything a bit more
simply. You don’t need so much. Right?
Thea: 05:34 Very true. And and I will
take that just into another stage of development when it moves from the
physical with our children to, you know, as from my experience as my children
have gone into adolescence and the different emotional states that are coming
up, and the discomfort that comes up. And I had a very clear experience, and I
can recall the memory moments very clearly where my, my child was
uncomfortable, struggling in some pain emotionally about something that was
emerging for himself. And I can very clearly see the tactic he was working to
employ was to bait me to create a situation of conflict, a drama in some sort
to bait me into that, to engage with him, to give him a channel to release his
frustration inappropriately. To release it towards me so he could be distracted
from actually stepping through his own work. And I remember seeing it so
clearly and instead of taking the bait, which I’m sure I have at times, but in
that moment really clearly, distinctly saying, “oh, you’re having a hard
time, huh?” So that stopped it.
Anne: 07:12 But, but it’s also, it’s
also acknowledging it, right? It’s not ignoring it. So it is being, it’s being
supportive, and it is seeing, regarding.
Thea: 07:22 And it gives a window.
So, “You’re having a hard time” and he then could have the window to
say, “Yeah, I am.” And I could say, “Do you want to talk about
it?” So it’s really about learning how to have a healthy relationship with
the things that come up, a relationship with oneself to be able to name and
identify when something is presenting itself for us to look at.
Anne: 07:52 Yes. When something is
troubling us. Um I had mentioned to you previously about something with my,
with one of my kids. She, she has a tendency to come into the room when she’s
upset. Again, she’s coming to an age where it’s beyond the physical, it’s
emotional, it’s settling into this, this world and some of its challenges,
right? Of being. ‘Cause They’re not just in this oneness of childhood all the
time. Right? And Hmmph!” You know a poutiness, throwing oneself on the
couch maybe and turning her head away from me. Right? And sometimes I will
actually say nothing. If it goes on, I will do what you had mentioned, which is
“What’s going on?” So acknowledging that I see that there’s something
going on, but refraining from, “Oh, what’s wrong? Are you upset?”
Because I feel that indulging that leads to what I see among peers. And I would
say women more than men for one reason or another.
Thea: 09:16 Or at least from your
perspective.
Anne: 09:17 Okay. From my
perspective, I have noticed, and maybe it’s because I have more female friends.
Right? But, but I’ve noticed a tendency for people to feel slighted, hurt,
something, by me. And rather than come to me and talk to me about it or express
that––to wait for me to figure that out, whether it’s through their behavior or
their silence. And I think when I was younger, I might have, I feel like it’s,
“taken the bait” on that. These days I’m much less inclined to want
to get drawn into that at all. Where I feel I’m, I’m asking you, I’m respecting
you enough to let me know if there’s something bothering you. If there is, I will
do everything in my power to address it. If you can’t even take the
responsibility to, to let me know, then I’m not going to be your parent and
draw it out of you. Right?
Thea: 10:29 Right. And there, there
are so many layers within that. Yeah. And, and it is, it’s, it’s an interesting
thing. We’ve spoken about that, you know, finding that balance of being, being
sensitive and compassionate to people in a struggle. And also not, not
continuing their stuck dynamic by engaging into that. Right? Because, because
that’s what we all have, these ways of being that have worked for us out of some
difficult situation in our past, our becoming an adult. And if those ways of
functioning that may truly be limiting to how we relate with ourselves and the
world, if they have still gotten what we want, we’re not going to change. I
mean, and that’s, and I have a very good friend, I remember talking about his
struggles with parenting. And I remember saying that, well, if there’s, if your
children are still getting what they want through their behavior, they’re not
going to change. We’re pretty simple creatures. Right? If we’re still getting
our basic comfort met our basic needs met, we’re not going to change. You know,
so that ties in with that in terms of that dynamic with friends, you know, if
we’re still getting the response we need, we’re still getting that sort of
feeding of attention and energy, which I think gets, can get really distorted.
Anne: 12:13 Absolutely. It’s, it, it
can become codependent. It can just perpetuate a dysfunctionality. Forever and
ever and ever really. And when we had talked about this earlier too, you used
the word enabling. We don’t want to enable patterns and ways of being in our
children or our friends or our partners or ourselves, which keep us limited.
Right? And, and not as empowered. Because how empowering is it to feel free and
confident enough to, when something that someone has done that you care to remain
in a relationship with, bothers you enough to impact you, to be able to then
say, “Hey, you pissed me off. You upset me. You hurt me.”
Thea: 13:16 Or I was really hurt when
you did this. You know, that’s that language again.
Anne: 13:24 Totally. I hate that I
even said that ’cause I, I’m so, I’m, I’m usually very clear about the fact
that largely it’s, it’s our choice to feel hurt or not or you know…
Thea: 13:42 Often it is. And I think
something we’ve talked about before, when I have had a, an experience of being
hurt by something someone has done, if I address it and speak to them, it is
often the case that they just hadn’t even realized it. Right? That it wasn’t a
true intention to hurt. It was my feeling of being hurt, you know? So what
happens, this going along with that, that picture that we give each other
opportunities to grow and expand our, our purview of, of perceiving, if that
makes sense. When people give us feedback I have a friend right now who, you
know, I’m trying to find my way. They’re in, they’re in a difficult time and
I’m trying to find the way to be supportive and compassionate in a way that
feels really true and sincere for me. And they have expressed to me, “You
know, I felt sort of hurt by this.” So I know that by them giving me that
information, and now I get to work with playing with––What’s the right dynamic
to be a supportive friend here, because I don’t want to take it on, but I also
want to make sure they do know I’m here for them.
Anne: 15:12 Right. Again, you want to
help draw them out of patterns that they may be also stuck in as we all get in.
Um but at the same time, supportive. It’s a balance. Uh just to hit another
couple material examples before we have to end. We talked about one one of mine
was oh well, well one was when the kids say “I’m bored,” right? They
go through these developmental stages where that is, is a, a running theme, you
know. They’ve come to awareness and consciousness that they are not just, again
in the oneness as much and able to just move from one thing to another
seamlessly. They actually now are having to think about what it is I want to
do. I am…
Thea: 16:10 They’re separate a little
bit.
Anne: 16:12 Yeah. And so the, we both
I think have a similar approach with that, which is “How lucky for
you!”
Thea: 16:20 “How fortunate you
are to be bored right now.”
Anne: 16:23 “I don’t have the
luxury of being bored. So work with that and see what comes of that.”
Right? And invariably something wonderful will. Or not.
Thea: 16:34 Or not. You know, I think
there’s something that’s really to be said for just a question in those moments
rather than a gesture of wanting to, to fix. ‘Cause Of course we want to see
our kids happy. Of course we want to see them thriving. But this goes to the
being comfortable in the discomfort. But when, when a child says “I’m
bored,” you could simply say, “Tell me about it. What’s that
like?” I mean age appropriate, let’s say, or “Oh, how so?” And
you know, it gives them a moment to bring forth, what’s their mind’s state. And
then they realize, “Oh, I’m actually not bored,” or “Telling you
about it would be really boring, so I’m outta here.”
Anne: 17:22 More likely. Right? Or,
or you know, of course another tactic is, “You’re bored, there’s some
clothes to fold over there. The kitchen needs cleaning,” and zoom, they
are out the door. Right? Figure out something. But not to keep harping on this
one, but, there’s a recent thing that happened. It was a few days ago, I think,
you know, my son is a voracious reader and he gets lost in his books and and if
he’s on one series or another, it can just be constant. And he had not picked
up the book from the library that he had reserved. He had finished the other
book and just, he’s all, you know, cranky and, and said something like,
“I’m bored,” you know, “There’s nothing to do,” you know,
and, and yeah, same tactic,”Oh, well,” you know. And out of that,
that day, I remember, came two poems. He, he, he found his journal and he wrote
a poem and a haiku. Right? That really stuck with me like, “Good. You have
to be bored.”
Thea: 18:24 Yeah. To create. Out of
suffering is born creation. Really. Sometimes at least. And was there another
point we were going to make?
Anne: 18:38 Well, well if you have
another one and I’m looking at a time, we’re trying to keep this nice and
short. One was about you know, I’d, I had said to you, I said, “I don’t
give handouts.” Right? I don’t mean, I don’t mean when I say that honestly
I have given money. I used to give money all the time in the street. I’m not
even talking about that. I do that much less. Occasionally I do when I’m
struck. Right? But more friends and family members, right? Who I will see a
pattern with, of asking for, for money, you know, material support. Repeatedly.
Right? It’s something that I am not inclined to do unless there is a very good
reason for me to believe that this is actually going to help them on their way,
and it’s not going to be a crutch to keep them stuck in their stuckness. And
you had made a point you had said, well…
Thea: 19:51 I had said, you know, I
find you to be quite generous with your time and your resources in terms of
just wanting to put them into good use and movement. And I think what it drew
forth in our conversation was there is, you know, there is a time for straight
generosity. I mean, just out of the goodness of one’s being to see someone who
has no comfort, to give comfort, right? That that is, that’s a reasonable
thing. And then when you have people that you’re in relationship with that,
that necessitates a different holding of how we share our resources of time,
energy, money, whatever you want to say. And I think what we identified was,
when there is striving, and an energy of movement and growth within someone who
is in a hard place. When that striping is there. I mean, we could talk about
that, as they’re already building a momentum around themselves by the effort
itself, whatever that is. That is where it is much simpler to give support
because it’s taken up, and it is in movement already. A.
Anne: 21:07 And it is utilized. We
talked about, I put it as if someone is able to receive the gift productively,
I want to give and give and give as much as I can. And am grateful to
participate in that person’s…
Thea: 21:30 Development, freedom,
liberation.
Anne: 21:31 Absolutely. But I am but,
but on the contrary when someone repeatedly is…Sorry I, I don’t want to get
too much into it right now, but…
Thea: 21:50 Well, I think what that
is, is there’s a difference in when it goes into something and it starts to––I,
I can see it in my mind––it moves and then there is something that has a
stuckness. So this is a little bit of a distinguishing between the practices of
parenting and what we’re trying to do with our children with Benign Neglect. To
build resilience means when you are in a stuck place, you have the capacity to
take whatever you can get your hands on to help you build that resilience
towards something better, you know, to get out of your own suffering. And when
you don’t have that faith in yourself, you don’t have that practice of taking a
situation that’s difficult, even with the generosity of others, you don’t have
your feet to stand on, to step to another level of being in yourself.
Anne: 22:54 Yes. Yes. And that wraps,
let’s wrap it up because that ties all the way back to the beginning, which is
why it is critical with our children that we allow them to develop that faith
in themselves, because if they don’t, every step we take in our lives moves us
in one direction or another, each step. Right? And so if they don’t have that
faith from the beginning or you know, and of course we can get it and learn it
and be challenged with very trying situations. But if it keeps being reinforced
that they get rescued out of whatever situation it is and don’t ever develop
that muscle and really that faith in themselves, then gosh, at 50 years old, at
60 years old, they still will not be able to use that, those generous gifts
from others to really make it on their own because they will never found that
faith in themselves.
Thea: 23:57 And I would, you know,
make it on their own. Yes. But I would even say, I mean, what are each of us
here for? You know, what I hold, anyway, is that for each of us to uncover what
it is that we have within our being’s destiny, to bring to the world, to work
with in the world and to leave into the world. And if I as a person am robbed
of my own struggle to discover what it is I’m here to bring to the world, then
it’s a disservice to myself and to humanity, all of life, you know, on that
light note. But that’s, that’s how I see it, you know, because yes, we can go
forth even when we’re handicapped and we can find the tools and build the
muscle with right opportunity. I mean I think each of us has found the same
sort of challenges come our way until we find a new way to meet them. And so it
does come, there is a wisdom in all of creation to bring it to us.
Anne: 25:12 Yes! We don’t miss our,
yeah, the opportunities continue to circle around to us throughout our lives,
right? But we need to be able to find that faith in ourselves one way or
another and find our path.
Thea: 25:33 Yes. And as parents, you
know, if we can hold that task with reverence and sincerity and meaning, like,
and real respect for how powerful this work is, you know, to know how important
that work is. To go forth into it. So, you know, all of that for all of us in
these relationships with our children, with each other to be able to build more
freedom for each other through–don’t want to say mindful, but it is
mindful–through really holding respect for one another. I think that’s
ultimately what it comes down to in a way.
Anne: 26:22 I think you are right,
because having true respect for someone–again, we’ve touched on this–does
also follow that we have the confidence in them, in their capacity, in their
largeness and capacity. So every time we hold back from fixing or lifting them
before they’re ready, we are, we are demonstrating a deep respect for our
children, for our partners, for our friends.
