Respect Begets Resilience and Empowerment––Anne Mason & Thea Mason

My sister Thea Mason and I discuss material examples of Benign Neglect––both in parenting and in relationships, with others and with oneself––which demonstrate respect and cultivate resilience. Which leads to empowerment.

Transcript below:


Anne:                                         00:01                       Okay. Hi, Thea.

Thea:                                         00:03                       Hi there, Anne. Good to see you.

Anne:                                         00:06                       Good to see you too. So starting this again. So this conversation we’re gonna talk, going to follow on last week’s conversation, which was about Benign Neglect as an approach to parenting, as an approach to all of our relationships, in order to encourage everyone to be resilient, right,? To, to help cultivate resilience, to help us grow our resilience. So, and so we want to talk about some material examples of that, both in parenting and in relationships. And I’m going to let you start with that.

Thea:                                         00:52                       So last conversation we had touched on a very early stage of development physically for a young child, being that they pushed up onto their hands and knees in the pursuit of movement and crawling and independence. And we were discussing a little…

Anne:                                         01:12                       Wait, wait. Can I just interrupt? And, and that most parents know instinctively to not assist that, because it’s so critical in them exercising those muscles in order to be able to do that. Because if we do it for them, they won’t exercise those muscles.

Thea:                                         01:32                       Right. I mean, and you have pictures of that in all of nature, right? I mean, one most everyone is familiar with is the caterpillar pushing, struggling out of the Chrysalis or it a chick hatching out. So if you, if you disturb that process, they are weakened and therefore cannot actually survive. So that’s a little, you know, picture. And as human beings, we have so many more varied and complex stages of these opportunities of the possibility to build resilience or to be hindered and crippled, essentially, for the way we meet the world. And so we were talking about, you know, some, some natural things that occur when children are young. And some of the things we were discussing, and from my experience and I’m sure yours in parenting, you know, as children start to develop freedom and then they want to climb the tree and they want to get to that branch. And sometimes as parents we want to support them and be there to help assist them into those places. And I think through learning we find that if you are to assist past a point where someone is ready to carry themselves, you’re actually putting them in danger because a child will only climb to that which they can climb down from and get down from. Right? because they know they made it up, they can make it down. And if you’ve put someone there without their own striving and faith in their own ability, then there’s a fear lock. Right? And then they cannot quite do it. So that was one other example. I don’t know if you want to speak to that or…

Anne:                                         03:21                       No, I mean I think that’s a perfect example. And, and the word that came to mind was, if we put people somewhere prematurely, right? They, they really have to get there themselves in order to then be able to jump to the next, and the next, and the next, I think.To build the foundation. Right?

Thea:                                         03:43                       Absolutely. And another place that I see that in a really practical way out of the work I do and, and my history with my children is, is a swing. Moving on a swing takes its own impulse and will, or rhythmic movement of pushing and pulling oneself where they want to go. So those were just two very tangible, in terms of the development of the human being in pursuit of freedom and fun.

Anne:                                         04:18                       And, you know, and, and, and another one that just occurred to me I remember when we’d go to the beach together when our kids were younger and I would be like, oh, I forgot the shovel, or I forgot the buckets and shovels. And you said, here are their shovels, right? And I adopted that approach more across the board. Less props, less props, less toys, less things. And out of that, I would see wonderful projects being conceived and dams being built and holes being dug and in, in, in, in wonderful ways. Right? And, and doing that more and more reinforces that with our kids.

Thea:                                         05:06                       And builds, and also builds a space of more ease as a parent. You know, I mean, that’s the other part that it doesn’t have to be so busy or fraught with details. And can be a little bit more pleasant.

Anne:                                         05:25                       Well, and you’re, you’re much more fluid when you are living and approaching everything a bit more simply. You don’t need so much. Right?

Thea:                                         05:34                       Very true. And and I will take that just into another stage of development when it moves from the physical with our children to, you know, as from my experience as my children have gone into adolescence and the different emotional states that are coming up, and the discomfort that comes up. And I had a very clear experience, and I can recall the memory moments very clearly where my, my child was uncomfortable, struggling in some pain emotionally about something that was emerging for himself. And I can very clearly see the tactic he was working to employ was to bait me to create a situation of conflict, a drama in some sort to bait me into that, to engage with him, to give him a channel to release his frustration inappropriately. To release it towards me so he could be distracted from actually stepping through his own work. And I remember seeing it so clearly and instead of taking the bait, which I’m sure I have at times, but in that moment really clearly, distinctly saying, “oh, you’re having a hard time, huh?” So that stopped it.

Anne:                                         07:12                       But, but it’s also, it’s also acknowledging it, right? It’s not ignoring it. So it is being, it’s being supportive, and it is seeing, regarding.

Thea:                                         07:22                       And it gives a window. So, “You’re having a hard time” and he then could have the window to say, “Yeah, I am.” And I could say, “Do you want to talk about it?” So it’s really about learning how to have a healthy relationship with the things that come up, a relationship with oneself to be able to name and identify when something is presenting itself for us to look at.

Anne:                                         07:52                       Yes. When something is troubling us. Um I had mentioned to you previously about something with my, with one of my kids. She, she has a tendency to come into the room when she’s upset. Again, she’s coming to an age where it’s beyond the physical, it’s emotional, it’s settling into this, this world and some of its challenges, right? Of being. ‘Cause They’re not just in this oneness of childhood all the time. Right? And Hmmph!” You know a poutiness, throwing oneself on the couch maybe and turning her head away from me. Right? And sometimes I will actually say nothing. If it goes on, I will do what you had mentioned, which is “What’s going on?” So acknowledging that I see that there’s something going on, but refraining from, “Oh, what’s wrong? Are you upset?” Because I feel that indulging that leads to what I see among peers. And I would say women more than men for one reason or another.

Thea:                                         09:16                       Or at least from your perspective.

Anne:                                         09:17                       Okay. From my perspective, I have noticed, and maybe it’s because I have more female friends. Right? But, but I’ve noticed a tendency for people to feel slighted, hurt, something, by me. And rather than come to me and talk to me about it or express that––to wait for me to figure that out, whether it’s through their behavior or their silence. And I think when I was younger, I might have, I feel like it’s, “taken the bait” on that. These days I’m much less inclined to want to get drawn into that at all. Where I feel I’m, I’m asking you, I’m respecting you enough to let me know if there’s something bothering you. If there is, I will do everything in my power to address it. If you can’t even take the responsibility to, to let me know, then I’m not going to be your parent and draw it out of you. Right?

Thea:                                         10:29                       Right. And there, there are so many layers within that. Yeah. And, and it is, it’s, it’s an interesting thing. We’ve spoken about that, you know, finding that balance of being, being sensitive and compassionate to people in a struggle. And also not, not continuing their stuck dynamic by engaging into that. Right? Because, because that’s what we all have, these ways of being that have worked for us out of some difficult situation in our past, our becoming an adult. And if those ways of functioning that may truly be limiting to how we relate with ourselves and the world, if they have still gotten what we want, we’re not going to change. I mean, and that’s, and I have a very good friend, I remember talking about his struggles with parenting. And I remember saying that, well, if there’s, if your children are still getting what they want through their behavior, they’re not going to change. We’re pretty simple creatures. Right? If we’re still getting our basic comfort met our basic needs met, we’re not going to change. You know, so that ties in with that in terms of that dynamic with friends, you know, if we’re still getting the response we need, we’re still getting that sort of feeding of attention and energy, which I think gets, can get really distorted.

Anne:                                         12:13                       Absolutely. It’s, it, it can become codependent. It can just perpetuate a dysfunctionality. Forever and ever and ever really. And when we had talked about this earlier too, you used the word enabling. We don’t want to enable patterns and ways of being in our children or our friends or our partners or ourselves, which keep us limited. Right? And, and not as empowered. Because how empowering is it to feel free and confident enough to, when something that someone has done that you care to remain in a relationship with, bothers you enough to impact you, to be able to then say, “Hey, you pissed me off. You upset me. You hurt me.”

Thea:                                         13:16                       Or I was really hurt when you did this. You know, that’s that language again.

Anne:                                         13:24                       Totally. I hate that I even said that ’cause I, I’m so, I’m, I’m usually very clear about the fact that largely it’s, it’s our choice to feel hurt or not or you know…

Thea:                                         13:42                       Often it is. And I think something we’ve talked about before, when I have had a, an experience of being hurt by something someone has done, if I address it and speak to them, it is often the case that they just hadn’t even realized it. Right? That it wasn’t a true intention to hurt. It was my feeling of being hurt, you know? So what happens, this going along with that, that picture that we give each other opportunities to grow and expand our, our purview of, of perceiving, if that makes sense. When people give us feedback I have a friend right now who, you know, I’m trying to find my way. They’re in, they’re in a difficult time and I’m trying to find the way to be supportive and compassionate in a way that feels really true and sincere for me. And they have expressed to me, “You know, I felt sort of hurt by this.” So I know that by them giving me that information, and now I get to work with playing with––What’s the right dynamic to be a supportive friend here, because I don’t want to take it on, but I also want to make sure they do know I’m here for them.

Anne:                                         15:12                       Right. Again, you want to help draw them out of patterns that they may be also stuck in as we all get in. Um but at the same time, supportive. It’s a balance. Uh just to hit another couple material examples before we have to end. We talked about one one of mine was oh well, well one was when the kids say “I’m bored,” right? They go through these developmental stages where that is, is a, a running theme, you know. They’ve come to awareness and consciousness that they are not just, again in the oneness as much and able to just move from one thing to another seamlessly. They actually now are having to think about what it is I want to do. I am…

Thea:                                         16:10                       They’re separate a little bit.

Anne:                                         16:12                       Yeah. And so the, we both I think have a similar approach with that, which is “How lucky for you!”

Thea:                                         16:20                       “How fortunate you are to be bored right now.”

Anne:                                         16:23                       “I don’t have the luxury of being bored. So work with that and see what comes of that.” Right? And invariably something wonderful will. Or not.

Thea:                                         16:34                       Or not. You know, I think there’s something that’s really to be said for just a question in those moments rather than a gesture of wanting to, to fix. ‘Cause Of course we want to see our kids happy. Of course we want to see them thriving. But this goes to the being comfortable in the discomfort. But when, when a child says “I’m bored,” you could simply say, “Tell me about it. What’s that like?” I mean age appropriate, let’s say, or “Oh, how so?” And you know, it gives them a moment to bring forth, what’s their mind’s state. And then they realize, “Oh, I’m actually not bored,” or “Telling you about it would be really boring, so I’m outta here.”

Anne:                                         17:22                       More likely. Right? Or, or you know, of course another tactic is, “You’re bored, there’s some clothes to fold over there. The kitchen needs cleaning,” and zoom, they are out the door. Right? Figure out something. But not to keep harping on this one, but, there’s a recent thing that happened. It was a few days ago, I think, you know, my son is a voracious reader and he gets lost in his books and and if he’s on one series or another, it can just be constant. And he had not picked up the book from the library that he had reserved. He had finished the other book and just, he’s all, you know, cranky and, and said something like, “I’m bored,” you know, “There’s nothing to do,” you know, and, and yeah, same tactic,”Oh, well,” you know. And out of that, that day, I remember, came two poems. He, he, he found his journal and he wrote a poem and a haiku. Right? That really stuck with me like, “Good. You have to be bored.”

Thea:                                         18:24                       Yeah. To create. Out of suffering is born creation. Really. Sometimes at least. And was there another point we were going to make?

Anne:                                         18:38                       Well, well if you have another one and I’m looking at a time, we’re trying to keep this nice and short. One was about you know, I’d, I had said to you, I said, “I don’t give handouts.” Right? I don’t mean, I don’t mean when I say that honestly I have given money. I used to give money all the time in the street. I’m not even talking about that. I do that much less. Occasionally I do when I’m struck. Right? But more friends and family members, right? Who I will see a pattern with, of asking for, for money, you know, material support. Repeatedly. Right? It’s something that I am not inclined to do unless there is a very good reason for me to believe that this is actually going to help them on their way, and it’s not going to be a crutch to keep them stuck in their stuckness. And you had made a point you had said, well…

Thea:                                         19:51                       I had said, you know, I find you to be quite generous with your time and your resources in terms of just wanting to put them into good use and movement. And I think what it drew forth in our conversation was there is, you know, there is a time for straight generosity. I mean, just out of the goodness of one’s being to see someone who has no comfort, to give comfort, right? That that is, that’s a reasonable thing. And then when you have people that you’re in relationship with that, that necessitates a different holding of how we share our resources of time, energy, money, whatever you want to say. And I think what we identified was, when there is striving, and an energy of movement and growth within someone who is in a hard place. When that striping is there. I mean, we could talk about that, as they’re already building a momentum around themselves by the effort itself, whatever that is. That is where it is much simpler to give support because it’s taken up, and it is in movement already. A.

Anne:                                         21:07                       And it is utilized. We talked about, I put it as if someone is able to receive the gift productively, I want to give and give and give as much as I can. And am grateful to participate in that person’s…

Thea:                                         21:30                       Development, freedom, liberation.

Anne:                                         21:31                       Absolutely. But I am but, but on the contrary when someone repeatedly is…Sorry I, I don’t want to get too much into it right now, but…

Thea:                                         21:50                       Well, I think what that is, is there’s a difference in when it goes into something and it starts to––I, I can see it in my mind––it moves and then there is something that has a stuckness. So this is a little bit of a distinguishing between the practices of parenting and what we’re trying to do with our children with Benign Neglect. To build resilience means when you are in a stuck place, you have the capacity to take whatever you can get your hands on to help you build that resilience towards something better, you know, to get out of your own suffering. And when you don’t have that faith in yourself, you don’t have that practice of taking a situation that’s difficult, even with the generosity of others, you don’t have your feet to stand on, to step to another level of being in yourself.

Anne:                                         22:54                       Yes. Yes. And that wraps, let’s wrap it up because that ties all the way back to the beginning, which is why it is critical with our children that we allow them to develop that faith in themselves, because if they don’t, every step we take in our lives moves us in one direction or another, each step. Right? And so if they don’t have that faith from the beginning or you know, and of course we can get it and learn it and be challenged with very trying situations. But if it keeps being reinforced that they get rescued out of whatever situation it is and don’t ever develop that muscle and really that faith in themselves, then gosh, at 50 years old, at 60 years old, they still will not be able to use that, those generous gifts from others to really make it on their own because they will never found that faith in themselves.

Thea:                                         23:57                       And I would, you know, make it on their own. Yes. But I would even say, I mean, what are each of us here for? You know, what I hold, anyway, is that for each of us to uncover what it is that we have within our being’s destiny, to bring to the world, to work with in the world and to leave into the world. And if I as a person am robbed of my own struggle to discover what it is I’m here to bring to the world, then it’s a disservice to myself and to humanity, all of life, you know, on that light note. But that’s, that’s how I see it, you know, because yes, we can go forth even when we’re handicapped and we can find the tools and build the muscle with right opportunity. I mean I think each of us has found the same sort of challenges come our way until we find a new way to meet them. And so it does come, there is a wisdom in all of creation to bring it to us.

Anne:                                         25:12                       Yes! We don’t miss our, yeah, the opportunities continue to circle around to us throughout our lives, right? But we need to be able to find that faith in ourselves one way or another and find our path.

Thea:                                         25:33                       Yes. And as parents, you know, if we can hold that task with reverence and sincerity and meaning, like, and real respect for how powerful this work is, you know, to know how important that work is. To go forth into it. So, you know, all of that for all of us in these relationships with our children, with each other to be able to build more freedom for each other through–don’t want to say mindful, but it is mindful–through really holding respect for one another. I think that’s ultimately what it comes down to in a way.

Anne:                                         26:22                       I think you are right, because having true respect for someone–again, we’ve touched on this–does also follow that we have the confidence in them, in their capacity, in their largeness and capacity. So every time we hold back from fixing or lifting them before they’re ready, we are, we are demonstrating a deep respect for our children, for our partners, for our friends.

Thea:                                         26:57                       Yes. Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Anne:                                         27:00                       Thank you. See you next time.

Thea:                                         27:02                       See you later.

Anne:                                         27:03                       Alright. Let me end this.

Becoming Resilient––Anne Mason and Thea Mason

My sister Thea Mason and I discuss the concept of benign neglect in parenting, as well as in all our relationships, to help everyone build the necessary resilience to face life’s challenges.

Transcript below:

Anne:                                         00:02                       Hi Thea!

Thea:                                         00:03                       Hi, Anne!

Anne:                                         00:03                       So today we’re going to talk about resilience. And we come to this, I come to this partly because I have been seeing an overemphasis I think on people’s victimization in this culture, in this society, in, throughout our history on too much emphasis in my opinion on victim hood and identifying with our victimhood rather than identifying with our strengths and our empowerment. And we won’t get too into this, but the last conversation we had was…we talked about empowerment. What is empowerment? And you pointed out that this word has been, it’s thrown around a lot and it’s used a lot, but I think we need to get clear about what is empowerment and what is, what is resilience? How do we become resilient? How do we remain resilient to face the challenges that inevitably we face throughout our lives?

Thea:                                         01:31                       And one of the colorings I think that we had spoken about in regards to the dynamic of victimhood is this the functioning of victim mindset to look to the world, to change, to make the victim feel better. To ask for that, which is outside to alter. And one of the dynamics we’ve spoken about is really this is a relationship, right? So you have the individual in its victim state or non victim state relating to the world. And both of them have to be inter interacting and connecting together. Impressing upon one another to, sorry, helicopter to enact change and development as a, as a species, as a culture and so on. And so when the victim hood is getting stuck in this one direction dynamic to the outside world, we’re really not going anywhere good. So that’s one part. And then we were talking about what is it that, what is it that can cultivate resilience and speaking as parents, as mothers, we’re looking at, okay, what is, what does that mean for parenting?

Thea:                                         02:55                       You know, there’s numerous parenting books and styles, everything. Well, what is the, the function of the parent to be able to bring forth, can we pause? Sorry, my timer’s going off. I forgot.

Anne:                                         03:11                       So just to come back after that interruption, you were talking about parenting what kind of parenting? The type of parenting that really helps children become the type of adult that can weather the storm as opposed to being demolished by it and demanding that the world change or stop or alter to accommodate their inability to handle that. Right? So that, that’s my take on it. Right?

Thea:                                         03:54                       Right. And, and within that take, I mean, we did, we talked about there’s a difference between the demanding gesture and the commanding gesture. And within that, I feel like it’s important just to have those moments to distinguish, I think recognizing the difference of just, “Hey, pull yourself up by the bootstraps and you just do it.” And that’s true. And when there are true things that need altering in a culture, that is that, that’s that picture of that pressing. We have to change one another in that relationship to evolve.

Anne:                                         04:31                       Exactly. We, right. And, and in the last conversation, in another conversation that we had had, I said, you know, the extreme version is that idea of throwing a kid into the water before they know how to swim and, “sink or swim.” Right? And that people may have learned to swim that way back back when. Okay. But that’s not ideal either because that’s traumatizing as well.

Thea:                                         04:55                       And then probably they don’t like to swim. Right? So, so and so talking about the distinguishing, what is that characteristic or style of parenting and through many conversations over the years, I had coined it as benign neglect, ah, as a parenting style or as a parenting tool. And so here we get to talk about how that that dynamic can be utilized as a parent with a child. It can also be utilized as a friend to a friend or a partner to a partner in whatever dynamic. And essentially it is when the child or friend or whomever is in a problem, in a struggle of sorts, whatever that is, that, that you as the, or me as the support, the friend, the parent, the guide is clear about where they are with their problem and where I reside with myself. Therefore I’m not getting into their problem with them and taking it over and trying to fix it, but I can be a supportive tool or a guide to help them find their way to their own solution.

Anne:                                         06:24                       Yes. So it’s, because in, in another conversation that we had talked about, you know, it’s, it’s not helicopter parenting, right? It’s also not “Cry it out.” Right?

Thea:                                         06:45                       Right.

Anne:                                         06:45                       It’s, it is allowing the child the space to struggle and prove something to him or herself really is what it is. And you had identified this in another conversation. It’s also letting that child or partner or friend know that you’ve got the utmost faith in them to be able to do it. And so much faith that you don’t have to fix it for them or do it for them or make it easier. And one of the examples we had touched on was in a very basic way that most parents understand, and I think this is, it’s interesting when we were talking about the knowingness, before? I don’t know that any parent, I’ve never seen any parent interfere with the, the, the, the baby who is struggling desperately to get up on their hands and knees to crawl.

Anne:                                         07:55                       We instinctively know somewhere deep inside of us that the only way that baby is going to move forward is if we allow them to do it themselves. No matter how much their crying and frustrated and you can see it in their face, right? We all allow our kids to do that. The key I think is to continue doing that throughout their lives and to do that with anyone else. But it, it doesn’t mean, I mean if you know, if danger is coming and the kid’s right in the midst of learning how to crawl, we’re not going to just let them do that and come to harm, right? So there’s a balance.

Thea:                                         08:40                       There’s a balance and that muscle has to be exercised so that we can tune into what that is, that dynamic of healthy struggle as opposed to endangering pain. So for ourselves as parents to our children and for ourselves as individuals experiencing pain, I mean it’s such a, such a, such a layered web of becoming an identifying reality as such, you know, in terms of what happens in that moment if we, if I as a parent take my child out of that moment of struggle when it was good, healthy struggle, I have robbed them of their own experience of proving something to themselves. I have also robbed myself as the parent of allowing that growth that occurs for our children to become more individual, separate from the parent. If I take take that child up before it’s time. I didn’t quite hit that well, but…

Anne:                                         09:56                       I know, I know what you were getting at just to because the, the parent, it’s an, you know, we’re doing a, we’re dancing with our kids, especially those first 18 or so years. And if we don’t allow them to do that in front of us, then we’re also robbing ourselves of that knowledge that our kids are actually going to be okay.

Thea:                                         10:25                       Right. And I mean, and then you know, that can I kind of lost where I was going, but it kind of, it can get so hijacked for so many reasons. And, and sometimes you’ll see this with parents who, you know, I can’t remember. It’s some syndrome of some sort or some complex that it’s called when a parent needs a child to be sick? So there’s, so that’s like an extreme distorted dynamic of it, to be needed. Yeah. there is, and then as you’re talking about a child learning how to press up into hands and knees I don’t know what’s on the market these days, but I do know that there are things provided for babies to sit up before they’re ready to sit up, there are things provided for babies to stand before they’re ready to stand…

Anne:                                         11:13                       Or to walk. Walkers, right?

Thea:                                         11:14                       Or to walk. So we have these things that are in our broad culture that are, are pushing us away from the intrinsic instinctual and intuitive parenting that we have with our children.

Anne:                                         11:35                       Right? It’s shortchanging everybody. Yeah. Right.

Thea:                                         11:38                       And so again, so what those things are doing and we can map that back to pregnancy, I mean to, you know, it’s like everywhere that it’s, it’s pulling us away from exercising that muscle of instinct and the other side of that, intuition. Those two sides of knowing beyond the factual seeing.

Anne:                                         12:00                       Beyond the parenting book that tells you, “In this situation, allow your child to learn to climb the tree but don’t make the, make sure the tree isn’t so high” or something like that. We have to get past that. We have to instinctively know. And, and that, that comes from the beginning and practicing this from the beginning when the risks are very low.

Anne:                                         12:23                       Right? So when it’s just learning to rollover learning to grasp it’s to allow the child, the, the full capacity and range to go through their struggle and overcome that step by step by step.

Thea:                                         12:42                       Yes. That muscle grows continuously.

Anne:                                         12:47                       You can, and you know, this would be another conversation, but I didn’t even think, you know, fever. Right? Or all of the other things that our body does, right? It’s like, or pain. The pain relievers. Our obsession with pain relief on every level. Our obsession with not allowing people to be depressed for very normal reasons. Like grief. I remember when our folks died, you know, and you know, people offering to prescribe medication to minimize our grief. Right? No! We have to grieve and move through that in order to come out the other side. Anyway.

Thea:                                         13:28                       Well, one more thing I think, I mean it’s, I know it’s so fun and exciting to explore the ideas and see all the avenues where they’re connected. But one of the other parts was in that experience of struggle and frustration and discomfort, you know, as parents, we are, it’s such a huge responsibility in terms of identifying and naming things for our children. So, so rather than that struggle, that hard work that makes their muscles tired rather than that being pain, that’s frustration and strengthening. But if it has been named as pain, I mean, I’m using this, pushing up on my hands and knees, but it can be so many other things. You know, as, I’ve worked with kids who, oh, they have sore muscles and it feels like pain because they don’t yet know how to name that as, “my muscles are sore because I use them in a new way.” So just the importance of that identifying and naming of something. And if we don’t allow that healthy struggle, when we, when that resistance comes at us in a, in an uncomfortable way, a child who has not had the experience of going through that resistance, feeling that resistance and coming out the other end may think, whoa, that’s pain.

Anne:                                         14:57                       Or there’s something wrong here, which relates to something we’ve talked about before, which is what you’d said, being okay with being uncomfortable, being comfortable with being uncomfortable.

Thea:                                         15:10                       Yes. Getting comfortable in the discomfort. And that is parents, I mean, that’s like one of our first jobs, getting comfortable with that discomfort of everything that’s going to be coming our way, raising children into the world. And if we can get comfortable there, our kids can get comfortable there and find their own way with it and not uh…

Anne:                                         15:41                       Avoid it. Not avoid it. Right?

Thea:                                         15:43                       Yeah. Yeah.

Anne:                                         15:44                       Um you know, which also reminds me of other things we’ve talked about. A conversation we had had about just, you know, even in a household, I mean, I’ve talked to other friends of mine about this, but you know, my husband and I fight, right? We don’t take it behind closed doors and then come out after it’s all resolved. The kids see us fight, the kids see us resolve it. Right? And I, you know, some might think might say we’re, we’re a little too, you know, just, it’s all, it’s all out here, right? There’s but hold on one sec.

Anne:                                         16:33                       Okay. So anyway, so yeah, just, just, just in, in regards life’s problems, right? Obviously everything has to be developmentally appropriate. I’m not going to introduce my kids to worldly problems that are not impacting them right now, that they’re not ready, I feel to handle yet, but bit by bit, I think that we can, you know, we need to find a flow in which we’re not contriving the world. You know, the, the, there is a struggle. The human experience is, is, and can be a struggle. It’s, there is beauty in the struggle, right? And, and we overcome. And we triumph. And so, so how do, how do we, how do we guide our children to learn that and know that in themselves?

Thea:                                         17:34                       Well one of the things you had said in our conversation another time was really the task of the parent is to allow for the safe creation of a practice world for the child. And I would tie that even into our, our last conversation we shared about games. That’s what games do, right? There our practice world for meeting challenges and all these different dynamics, social dynamics and such. And as parents, if we can allow for that practice world, the struggle can happen. The conflicts can happen. And when there’s need for intervention, we’re there. But the need is so much, so much less frequent than we think.

Anne:                                         18:24                       And let me interrupt something cause it, it makes me realize something that’s worth saying. I think the reason that we have gone this whole other direction is because our generation, maybe even the generation before came from more authoritarian, an extremeness the other way, that we’ve been trying to, we’re reacting to that. And people may be, perhaps are going overboard in, in sparing children, any pain, any pain, any struggle, right?

Anne:                                         19:02                       Which also goes into this whole idea of giving your kids boundaries and guidelines too, right?

Thea:                                         19:11                       Yes. It’s not a free for all!

Anne:                                         19:13                       Exactly. We both live in areas where a lot of people read a lot of books about parenting. And I think there’s sometimes a tendency to, in order to allow the child to freely express themselves they’re not giving the child enough enough boundary to push against.

Thea:                                         19:40                       Right. And so what that also sparks for me in that is, you know, really when I was thinking about this benign neglect, it was sort of like how to raise the child that you’ll like as an adult. That you’ll like to be around as an adult.

Anne:                                         19:57                       Okay. We’re back.

Thea:                                         19:58                       So I believe I was talking about this idea of how do you raise a kid you’re going to like as an adult and ideally, hey, that you mostly like when they’re a kid as well. There’s going to be periods where you don’t, you know. That’s, that’s appropriate. And we were talking a little bit earlier about how allowing for or giving the space of a benign neglect practice of parenting allows for a young person or anyone to develop their own relationship with, with what is good and true to build a muscle with those activities and ways of relating to the world. And if those ways are practiced and that relationship with what is good and true and beautiful is strengthened, then they’re able to come into the world and touch in with those qualities and know when they’re in line with those qualities and when they’re not.

Anne:                                         20:59                       Without someone else telling them.

Thea:                                         21:04                       Right. So that goes to this idea of approval, external approvals or not. So you also made a comment about Orson Scott Card saying that, an author, saying you’re not really truly an adult until…

Anne:                                         21:18                       Until you stop worrying about what other people think of you. And I, and I qualified this when we talked about it before that of course it makes sense to regard and check in with those you love and respect, or those you respect really, because we all need to be checked sometimes. And we all need the feedback from the outside world to really, to have some perspective on ourselves, some objective perspective. But, you know, and this is a conversation for another time, but I think even our educational system is geared toward training people from very early ages to seek approval, to seek authoritarian approval, really authority’s approval or seek someone’s approval uh in order to move forward. And I think the key is to raise people who have a, the word you’ve used is compass, who, who have a compass, a keen compass. That over time allows them to sense when they are behaving badly, basically.

Anne:                                         22:40                       Right? Or going down the wrong path. Because it’s not about behaving badly. It’s also about behaving purposefully. There are some great figures in history, many who have gone forward because they, their compass told them and directed them so, and much of the world thought they were crazy, but they ended up being the movers.

Thea:                                         23:10                       Well, and, and I feel like, I just want to fill that in a little bit because I think developmentally, you know, there is an appropriate time to look to your teacher, your guide, your parents for approval. That is a healthy, appropriate thing. But the task is then for that dynamic to evolve. So when that teacher, parent you know, is doing a good job, they get to where they don’t, that the student isn’t looking for the approval anymore because the approval is in the doing or the, the act itself. And so that’s just, that’s a dynamic of teaching that gets distorted, as well.

Anne:                                         23:55                       Right, right. And parenting, teaching and parenting, right? Because if, if the teacher or the parent is not mindful enough of their own stuff to, to do their best to regard that other being that other person as a separate.

Thea:                                         24:17                       Free being.

Anne:                                         24:19                       Yeah. As a separate free being, having their own growth, their own challenges, their own struggles that don’t reflect on us. One way or the other, right? If they can do that, they’ll go a long way toward healthily giving their approval or disapproval when the child needs it.

Thea:                                         24:43                       Yeah. Right. And knowing when those moments are which is so key and that really, so…Two things out of that, if I can keep it. One was, you know, touching on traumas before I go into that. The other part I wanted to accent is, so in terms of that, that trauma that, that we can get caught up in, which doesn’t allow that person to go through their own struggle of their own that isn’t ours.

Anne:                                         25:15                       Let, let, let me clarify that…what we had talked about in another conversation was that it is often our own traumas as parents that influence us to not want to let the child struggle through their necessary struggle. Right? We want to spare them the traumas that we had, which is why it’s so important to become conscious of our traumas, identify them and work through them in whatever healthy way we can. Not get stuck in them and project them onto our children as well. So we had talked about that which…Traumas probably needs to be its own conversation, and I’ve seen our time. We’re pretty long.

Thea:                                         26:09                       So really it’s, it’s the notion if we’re just to pull these things together, the notion, oh I got it. Really the work is individually as parents, individually as a a partner or friend, is that work of clarifying our own ah, work, our own habits that either take us into good things or bad things or, and good healthy relationship practices.

Thea:                                         26:37                       And the more we do that individually, the more that simply translates into how we are going allow another human being to develop freely. If we are working on freeing ourselves from whatever is externally pressing in upon us in terms of teachers’ approval judgments…

Anne:                                         27:01                       Pain. Headaches, body aches emotional aches. If we can face those, step by step every day and move through them and prove to ourselves that we’re all okay, we’re all going to be okay. Just keep moving forward. Right? We are powerful beings. We can handle a lot. If we can do that, and be mindful of it for ourselves, that helps us to be more mindful of it for our children. It helps us to be more mindful of it for our friends, for our partners and for all the members of society around us, right? To be compassionate. And respectful. But to have such faith in each other, that, that we are capable of overcoming. And become resilient, right?

Thea:                                         28:00                       Absolultely. Becoming resilient. Yes.

Anne:                                         28:05                       And so maybe, maybe in another one we may flesh out more material examples of that, you know, with, you know, beyond the, the crawling.

Thea:                                         28:13                       Right. Taking it into stages of development, even relationship dynamics or struggles that can come up. That would be really good fun.

Anne:                                         28:27                       Yes. Good work for all of us.

Thea:                                         28:29                       Good work for everybody. All right. Thank you Anne.

Anne:                                         28:32                       Thank you, Thee. All right. See you next time. Bye.