Have folks replaced traditional religion with an unquestioning faith in the doctrine they call “Science?”
VIDEO TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Anne: 00:01 Okay.
Here we are again with Drake on the East coast. Thea down in Southern California,
me, Anne, up here in Northern California. And last time we got together we
talked about organized religion. And again, I want to just briefly preface this
dialogue just like all the others with an explanation of why we’re doing this.
It’s, it’s really just an examination. It’s asking questions. It is an attempt
to find perhaps new language for a growing, ever expanding consciousness as
we––as I understand––are moving into a new age. And so here we are again. We
spoke about organized religion last time and while I have a great deal of
respect for the practice of organized religion, all that it offers, a
foundation of morality and a guideline for growing, positive living. I also see
some downsides to it. And what we discussed last time was the tendency sometimes
to get stuck in a fixed set of beliefs which don’t then promote continued
examination and looking at things from a new perspective, which then in turn
doesn’t support learning. And for us to expand our consciousness, for us to
continue moving forward and grow, we need to keep learning. And so following
that, I’d like to discuss just briefly in this brief conversation what I see as
a kind of new secularist religion called “Scientism.” And it’s a term
that is being bandied about more and more these days. It’s a distinction
between actual science––which is a method of observation and measurement and
theory based on those observations and measurements and experiments––versus a
doctrine. And before we started recording, Drake and I were talking a little bit
about my experience––and I think we’ve all had this experience where, whether
it’s climate change, whether it’s medicine,vaccines or really any area where
science has brought us to an understanding and a practice and a theory––I’m
finding that when people challenge those theories, whether it’s in social
media, online debates, or in person, often, even if I, for example, provide
studies that challenge the consensus, the response will be “It’s science.
Don’t you understand science?” Do either of you have this experience?
Drake: 03:48 Yeah.
Something that came up for me when you were talking, Anne, was the way that
people appeal, not so much to the method of science, but to science as some
sort of credible, accepted institution. Right? That things need to be peer
reviewed and pass through a certain number of tests or examinations before they
are accepted as, you know, science. And in thinking of what it means to
challenge that practice––because really if one’s going to have faith in a
methodology, it seems to me that you need to actually examine what that method
is taking for granted. Like what, what a certain type of methodology is taking
for granted. And something that I’ve been learning over this past year, as my
education has continued, is that every single science has its presuppositions
that it has to take for granted. I wouldn’t pretend to know anything very
complex about any of these sciences like biology or physics or chemistry but I
do know that, or I think I know, that for example, biology takes the existence
of life for granted, right? Like it goes back to very basic presuppositions that
it has to assume that, or the science can’t work. And I think there’s other
suppositions that kind of weave themselves into the method of science.
Drake: 05:33 And
if those aren’t examined then I think science can result in wrong conclusions.
Like, I think of like if you’re, if you’re trying to draw two parallel lines
and it’s a little bit off in the beginning,, then a mile down the road, it’s
going to be way, way off. Well and something I thought of that I learned about
last semester was a guy named William Harvey in England who basically figured
out that the blood was a system of circulation. You know, he figured out that
the blood, that the heart pumps the blood through, you know, that it passes
around the lungs. Then it goes to the other, you know, different ventricles of
the heart, goes through the entire body and then circulates back to be re
oxygenated. And he figured that out by questioning the established doctrine of
the time, which was Galenism. And because Galen said no, the heart does this
specific function only and that was it––and that was the accepted thinking in
the universities––and Harvey started cutting open, he started dissecting
animals and going, actually that doesn’t make sense. Like he had to question
the method of actually, the method of the practice of the anatomical science at
the time to make this breakthrough. And so it seems like that should still
Thea: 06:52 And
we could then take that same gesture or standpoint of not just going with what
you’re given. It’s that you have to continuously be testing and making
observation about your practice of religion, your practice of science or the
method of science.
Anne: 07:15 Drake
just left us for a moment. Okay. He’s back.
Thea: 07:24 So
I was just saying that it seems like that’s the same sort of point that we were
talking about––organized religion––is that, stay awake! Stay awake and pay
attention that you don’t hand over your own seeing to another. And in terms of
the practice of science and observation, that has to continue, you know,
recognizing this is a presupposition, this is where we’re starting from, but
that’s not the whole totality of whatever it is we’re observing or studying
because you’re given this presupposition to start from.
Anne: 08:01 Yes,
absolutely. I agree. I try to constantly question. But even within those
sciences, which are founded on a presupposition, I’m seeing a dangerous lack of
critical thinking when people are working with these theories, discussing these
theories. Let me go on a little bit of a tangent. There is a lawn sign I have
been seeing a lot up here––I don’t know if you guys have something similar down
there––which makes a few, there’s a few statements. I find it absurd. It seems
like a virtue signaling type of thing, but it says something like “women’s
rights are human rights,” “black lives matter,” “love is
love,” whatever that means. And “science is real.” And
“science is real.” What does that mean? And so, you know, that’s what
I’m, I’m focused on right now. It’s beyond the fact that Drake, what you’re
saying is, is absolutely true. We need to constantly question even the
foundations of our working theories. Otherwise we’re going to get stuck in a
more and more narrow framework of theory. So we have to constantly question
even its foundation, re-examine it. But beyond that, we have to recognize that
science itself is simply a method. It is not a truth. I don’t really even know
how to get my head around saying something like, “science is real.” I
don’t understand it when people say to me––in response to me challenging germ
theory even, right? We are developing a new understanding of our immune system
and the human microbiome, virome, and the fact that the environment of our body
is a huge factor in terms of whether or not one person contracts a disease
versus another person who is exposed to the same virus or bacteria. Right? So
that is is shifting, that is growing, that is expanding. We’re developing a new
understanding of this. When I present this information or present studies that
demonstrate, that challenge, the idea that, “Oh, it’s just the germ that
makes someone sick,” someone will say “It’s science. Don’t you get
science?” Without even having to discuss the argument.
Drake: 11:40 Well
that’s funny, for it seems like they’re not even, they’re not even discussing
the science then. Because the science, science is just a chain of reasoning
within a certain set of parameters. Like, to do science is to reason your way
with certain parameters that, you know, at least in modern science, that you’ve
set for yourself and to the conclusion that follows. So, when you’re talking
about these lawn signs that are saying “science is real,” that sounds
to me like putting a sign in your lawn that says, you know, “logic is
real.” Like absolutely, logic is real. But logic can be wrong. You can
have, you can have conclusions that are logically true, but if your premises
are wrong, the logic is false. Like, so same thing. A chain of reasoning is
real. Yes, definitely real. But it can still be wrong.
Thea: 12:29 Well
the combination of statements on the sign is curious to me. What does science
have to do with, you know, rights of human beings having the right to be, and
be safe, you know? But it also then leads to that thought that that’s really
just that “science is real” is a belief. So it is now outside of the
scope of logic or reason. Saying, “science is real” is like, that
sounds like a doctrine.
Drake: 13:00 Not
Anne: 13:00 Yeah,
and I don’t remember now what, I think there was a climate change statement on
that one too. Right? So, you know, and that’s where I’m––for the sake of time
we won’t get too much into it––but that’s where I am wanting to explore what I
do see as kind of a new religion. So Scientism often––it includes the doomsday
prophecy of climate change, right? I’m not on any level suggesting that the
climate isn’t changing. But whereas peak oil theory was Scientism’s doomsday
theory prophecy in the naughts, right? The two thousands. Now it seems like
it’s, “Ah! Climate change! We’ve got to change our ways!” It’s kind
of, it’s the new religion’s Apocalyptic prophecy and warning. So we’ve got that
going on. And then we also have this very fixed set of beliefs that…what I am
seeing you know, I see the priests of Scientism––and not saying the good ones,
the good scientists, the good doctors are always examining, are always
questioning––but I am seeing people grant authority over themselves. I think
they are giving the authority to doctors, to scientists, to the experts to tell
them what is and what isn’t, what they should and shouldn’t do.
Thea: 14:58 Creating
a reality there.
Anne: 14:59 In
a similar way that the downside of organized religion, I think, handed that
over to the priest. So we’re coming up to 15 minutes and I know Drake has to
get going, but I think this is something to examine. I think that for all of
the secularists’ focus on rejection of organized religion, to me it seems as if
they simply replaced it with a new religion.
Drake: 15:40 New
Anne: 15:43 It’s
a new authority. So that’s what it is, Drake. It’s a new authority. Whereas God
and the priests are not their authority. Science as a God, almost? And the
priests of that Scientism is the authority? Is that right?
Drake: 16:08 I
wonder. Yeah. It’s like, it’s just, it seems very comforting to me to think of
people who don’t screw up. You know, like I didn’t grow up in organized
religion so I didn’t, I guess I didn’t grow up with a conception that there’s
always someone watching out for me doing the exact right thing––of a God figure
or a priest figure. But a lot of people that I speak to, just lately, talk
about science as if it’s some group of people somewhere who don’t mess up. And
that’s appealing, right? Like that’s nice to think that there might be people
that don’t mess up, but it’s not true.
Thea: 16:46 Well,
because it’s taking it from the religious realm, where there was faith involved
and the unseen––to the realm of “it’s reason and logic and that is above
all what we can trust. And it’s real.” So it’s interesting because we do
believe in reason and logic and those are good. But like you said, Drake, if
the beginning realm that the reason follows is off, then you have something
that’s false and now you have people believing it, or saying “it’s
real” in particular arenas.
Anne: 17:25 Or
simply if we missed something in our observations, that we then finally pick
up, well that’s going to change the working theory and that’s going to change
the entire model. Right?
Thea: 17:39 Can
I say one more quick thing? The thing that always––and science is not my
practice, I mean observation is though, so I guess in one way it is––the thing
that has always blown my mind learning the scientific method was that you could
only test that which you could conceive of. And so everything is limited there
in terms of creating theories and working theories. It’s only based upon what
you already know or think you know, and that right there is like, what?
Anne: 18:15 Right.
Your own reality. It’s only based on the reality that you can observe at that
moment. And as we all know, even from the time, like we said in the last one,
from the time you’re five years old to the time you’re seventy five years old,
our consciousness, our perceptions, our realities change. We perceive more,
differently. Right? So the same goes every day. So anyway, let’s get going and
pick this up I think next time, as we’re kind of formulating the discussion for
Thea: 18:50 Sounds
good. Thanks so much guys. Nice to see you.
Drake: 18:53 Alright.
Anne: 18:53 Alright,
let me, let me stop recording. You too.
How does consciousness grow if we subscribe to a fixed set of beliefs?
VIDEO TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Anne: 00:00 Okay. Hello there. We’ve got Drake from the East Coast. Thea down in SoCal. Me up here in Northern Cal. We’re going to try to make this quite a short one because Drake has to leave. So I want to start this out by talking just a little bit about why we’re doing these, this series of discussions, Thea and I often talk like this all the time anyway as do Drake and I when we have a chance to be together and we thought it would be a good idea to just share it with others who might be having some of the same streams of thought or questions and want to join in to the discussion. The tagline on the website, on the Sacred Osiris website is: Into the Age of the Fifth Sun, and that refers to the Mayan calendar, the Mayan elder prophecies that we are in transition and moving into a new age, which corresponds to many other prophecies of ancient texts and religions.
Anne: 01:15 Even
astrologically moving out of the age of Pisces into the age of Aquarius. So I
perceive us––of course, we hopefully are always moving forward in
consciousness. Hopefully we are always growing and developing and expanding our
consciousness. Evolving. But if we are between ages, marked ages, this transition
is likely even more dramatic. And perhaps we could use even a little bit more
attention and effort as we, as we find new language to express this transition
and perhaps new conceptions and new consciousness that we may be emerging into.
So, so it’s a dialogue and it’s, it’s just a lot of questions and obviously we
don’t have the answers and obviously we have some opinions. But the topic I
wanted to talk about is organized religion.
Anne: 02:29 And
I say that having a lot of respect for the practice of organized religion but
not subscribing to one particular set of beliefs that have, has been initiated
by someone else or organized by someone else, but rather kind of an amalgam of
my own study and practice and sense and faith and belief. And 49 years of life
experience. So the question I guess, or my, my issue with organized religion as
relates to what I just said is that––and let me back up for one second.
Something I love about Anthroposophy, Waldorf teaching is the, the approach to
teaching the approach to answering questions, especially when the child is
young. You know, “Why is the sky blue?” Rather than answer with an
explanation of the way light reflects, refracts off molecules in the air. One
might say, “I wonder?”
Thea: 03:46 As
opposed to answering with a finite sort of dead answer that stops the
Anne: 03:55 That
stops the wonder. Right? I think the idea in Waldorf teaching is to just let it
keep going in one way or another. Right? Whether it’s as the children are older
and you are having a discussion that takes you down many pads or not, but if we
answer anything with, with just like a hard and fast fact, well, that’s done,
Drake: 04:25 Yep. Interesting. I remember having a discussion in class this week that left me feeling sort of unsettled. And it’s funny that you’re mentioning Waldorf because Waldorf education has been on my mind a lot this week––because my verse, I think it was my verse in fourth grade, came back to my mind: To wonder at beauty, stand guard over truth. Look up to the noble, resolve in the good. And I think that was the first line that we would say everyday when we, when we left class…When I was getting kind of embroiled in the deep that, you know, the intellectual details of something. I’m getting stressed out about it. You know, I can’t figure out this, this one little thing. And I was like, well, how about I wonder at the beauty of it? Let me just look at––of this mathematical proposition or whatever it was and just kind of sit in that. And sure enough, I understood it a little bit later. Once I stopped the frenzied, you know, logic because it can, you know, when you’re trying to figure out a problem, you can get very stuck and not see what you’re missing or what presupposition you missed.
Drake: 05:35 And Anne, when you’re talking about different ages or people switching the way that they think about things, what came to my mind was presuppositions. Because if you want to have a mode of thought or a doctrine that’s going to allow you to evolve, it seems important that it would be a motive thought or a doctrine or philosophy or whatever it is that urges you to examine the presuppositions of the philosophy itself or the doctrine itself. And maybe that’s what organized religion doesn’t do. Maybe that’s something it really explicitly doesn’t do––is urge you to question why you’d be associated with that particular organized religion. And that’s supposition on my part, I don’t have evidence to back that up right now. I don’t have a lot of life experience with a particular organized religion, but just from my reading of different texts, that seems something that perhaps the actual teachers, you know, like, like Buddha or Krishna from the Bhagavad Gita, Christ. I think they do, they do urge people to actually think about things. But then the customs or laws laid down after those teachers by other people who embrace those religions maybe don’t as much.
Thea: 07:12 It
makes me think a little bit, Drake as you say, that like that the teachers themselves
were teaching, one of it was to maintain interest in things and questions. That
space of wonder. And what seems to be one of the things that people in general,
one of the places where we get tripped up is that wanting to claim something
entirely or, or be secure. I wonder if it comes from a sense of wanting to be
secure in some finite existence that the wondering stops. Like it’s a failing
of humans. Maybe not a failing, but it’s a habit. It’s not necessarily what the
teachings are at all. Right? That the teachings and that thread, stream of
wisdom isn’t finite like that, but that’s what we’ll do to it––like hanging on
to the image of it rather than penetrating to the essence of it.
Drake: 08:20 Yeah.
Or just, I mean, and that seems to be simply like staying in your comfort zone,
right? And that doesn’t have to be something that is totally seen as negative.
Like, yeah, all of us humans are going to do that, want to stay in our comfort
zones, but if we can understand that it applies intellectually or religiously
or spiritually as well. Because I feel like we, at least personally, I don’t
often think about it applying to those areas as well. Like, oh, you know, I
wanna stay in my comfort zone in terms of I don’t know, how hard I’m working at
something or some other aspect of my life that’s maybe more external and easier
to examine and I might not realize, “Oh, wow! It might also be my natural
tendency to stay in my comfort zone religiously or spiritually” or
whatever these other aspects of, of life that are less tangible.
Anne: 09:17 Yeah.
I mean, humans have this kind of dichotomous relationship with change and the
unknown. So we are drawn to it because we are curious and we have an innate
need to grow, as do all beings. But it’s scary too. So we like to find answers
that we can rest upon, I’d imagine. Right? I really like your point, Drake,
that probably the original teachings and teachers we’re conveying a truth and
spirit to others who then took that and fixed it. I mean, when I say fixed, put
it in a fixed organization that can be handed down and worked with as a
framework, always difficult to do. So I guess, since I don’t practice an
organized religion either and my main experience is with Catholicism, but I
didn’t get that deeply involved in it. I can’t speak to the tenets of all the
different religions. I do agree that a foundation of morality is critical to a
society, a family, a religion, anyone. Right? But those can be principles that
are not challenging to understand. But when we get into pedantic details, even
of…I was having a conversation with someone whose religion does not subscribe
to a belief in reincarnation. And the first thing that I think I remember him
saying is we don’t believe in reincarnation. Right? And so that, that just
saying, “we don’t believe,” to me that’s problematic because, I mean,
I’m not a collective. I work with people and I need people, and I I learn from
people, and I also share some beliefs with people, but I don’t like saying
“we believe.” I believe. So far, too. I believe, so far. Best I can
ascertain. Here’s what seems to make sense to me. Sorry, go ahead.
Drake: 12:50 Well,
yeah, that’s just what jumped to my mind when you said, “we don’t
believe,” for some reason, I thought of the “royal we,” how a lot
of a lot of literature when kings are speaking, from like older times, they use
the “royal we” and it like is it from themselves? And I was like, oh,
well, obviously, royalty, authority. You know, like if you’re saying “we
don’t believe,” it’s like this credence of authority that you’re like
interweaving with your opinion. Your opinion is the authority, and an authority
kind of seems like something that’s less likely to be questioned.
Anne: 13:23 Well, yeah, right. Also, you know what I think of though? I think of the Borg from Star Trek, right? The collective, hive mind, “we believe.” Right? Anyway. But back to that topic, for example, reincarnation. Look, I don’t know. For sure. To me, there’s enough evidence out there and certainly enough has been passed on through the hermetic traditions by many that I respect to suggest that reincarnation is something. Does exist. However, as I pointed out to my friend, maybe the ultimate goal is to stop cycling. Perhaps the goal is to stop reincarnating. Perhaps, perhaps that’s the goal for humanity. Perhaps that’s the goal for each individual soul––if you subscribe to that belief that there’s a soul––and perhaps it was interpreted somewhere along the way that because the goal is to not cycle, it doesn’t exist. But, but doesn’t want one need to leave room for the possibility that it does? Doesn’t one need to leave room for the possibility that there is something contained in every religion––every current modern religion being practiced, and every ancient religion that we have learned about, and every future one going forward––that there is some, some piece of the puzzle there that cannot be ruled out?
Thea: 15:17 What it draws to my mind a bit is there’s certain stories––and I know Drake can relate and probably you––that I like to reread every few years, even novels or whatever, to come back to a story. And every time I read it, as I live more life, I see more in the story that was always there, but I couldn’t, I didn’t have the experience within myself to reflect it and see it. And so it makes me think a little bit of the teachings of these different lines, these different religions, that that’s why there has to be a continuous study and penetration of the wisdom that’s passed to us. Because if we take it at face value, we see it in the way we saw something when we were five or ten or fifteen or twenty five or whatever it is. Instead of allowing it to just continue to work on us and for us to work with it in that expanding depth of anything that’s true or you know, that has that seed in it.
Drake: 16:36 That’s
funny. That makes me think a couple people last night were talking about a
certain Homer translator that is disliked in my dorm. And part of the reason
for that, and this is debatable, is that part of her philosophy of translating
is that when Homer repeats these epithets that he did because it was an oral
poem and he was remembering he needed to remember what came between. So he
would have these easily repeatable lines “dawn with rose red fingertips”
or the “wine dark sea”, like things that he would draw on––the sea,
it’s the wine dark sea. Dawn, it was this dawn. But this one translator, she
translates it completely differently every single time, because she wants the
reader in English to be struck with the image as if it was a new image every
single time. So she’s giving different words to it.
Drake: 17:33 And
I think I, I get, I think I understand why she’s doing that because it’s more
impactful for the reader. But the flip side is it seems like that takes some of
the work of the person reading the book away, right? You really try, you can read
it and get something different out of that image or be struck by that image,
equally, if you’re actively (inaudible) every single time in one of them
lesions. And so this seems to get into, like, if you’re going back and
rereading a text, whether it’s a religious text or some other thing that’s
helping guide your morality or your spirituality or anything it takes effort to
read it differently, right? Like it naturally happens if you let years, if
years go by and then you go back and read a book you’re probably gonna get
something out of it just cause you’ve changed as a person in that time. But if
you’re, if you’re a practicer of a religion and you’re doing it every single
day or every week or something like that, it’s hard. Like, it’s hard to read the
same things over and over again and have it, you know, hit you like have it
really stir something in you every single time. Like it seems to be a
difficulty of prayers too. Like if you have a prayer you repeat, it’s a really
good practice and I, and I admire it. But to feel it every single time instead
of having it be habit. And maybe, maybe the habit’s not bad as well, but it
came up when I was hearing you guys talk about that.
Anne: 19:04 Yeah,
and that’s also why the, the curriculum, the Waldorf curriculum, there’s,
there’s a new verse every year for the growing, the changing consciousness of
the child to say. A new prayer. Right? So we’re going to wrap this up so that
Drake, you can go on to practice and we can make this shorter for people as
well. I think that something that’s always been very helpful to me is, I mean,
this is not a new concept. That’s why comparative religion, comparative
religious studies is something that people do in university. I hope they still
do. I don’t know. But I think that doing whatever one can, to stimulate thought
and reconsideration so that we can continue looking at things from a slightly
new perspective, a fresh perspective, whether it’s engaging with new people,
other people reading the texts of other religions that are different than the
one that you practice, and allowing for possibility. To me that would temper
the problem that I have with a strict dogmatic practice that organized religion
often becomes. And dead. A deadened one, I found that with Catholicism, and I’m
sure that that was my experience with it. And it’s not many people’s, because I
know some Catholics who blow my mind with their connection to so many
dimensions of realms and spirit and God and faith. Like blow me away. So it’s
not Catholicism that is the problem, but certainly how I came to it or how it
was introduced to me or the priest that was heading things up, I guess. Butso
anyway, I guess that’s the conclusion for now and we can continue this
discussion in another, we can continue this dialogue in another discussion.
What does a priest provide that we can’t provide ourselves?
VIDEO TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Anne: 00:01 Okay.
Here we are again, we’re going to dive into some possibly controversial topics.
I want to ask the question, can we be our own priests?
Drake: 00:18 Yeah.
Remembering what we were talking about last time where we, we sort of discussed
different spiritual paths that people might have, whether they, I believe in
God, whether they don’t believe in God whether they’re agnostic and whatever
they’re sort of moral guidelines or a spiritual path might be. And coming back
to this question of whether we could be our own priest, I feel like that leads
me to think about what are the things that I would want a priest to do. ‘Cause
I’ve never been a part of an organized religion. I’ve never had a priest. I’ve
gone to church a couple of times, I’ve talked with a couple different priests,
and it seems like a very important thing is that you would confide, right? And
I know that that’s different in Christianity depending on whether you’re
Protestant or Catholic in terms of things that confession and stuff like that.
But that kind of leads to this difficulty of building up a relationship with
yourself where you actually confide things or dialogue about things with
yourself, whatever that would look like. Would it be a journal? Would it be a
prayer? Would it be a conversation with a loved one? I feel like these are all
different spaces that you could sort of hold that confidence with.
Anne: 01:45 So
in that’s the context of a counselor almost. Right? So a priest serves as a
counselor and a guide to people. And we all need that sometimes. The reason the
question comes up for me is that I have a difficulty with the idea of a
middleman between me and my source. And maybe I have it wrong. Maybe the priest
doesn’t get in the way of that. I don’t know. But Drake has gotten me reading
The Brothers Karamazov by Dostoevsky, and I’m only about halfway through. Drake
has read it and there’s a particular chapter that came to mind when we were
talking about this before we started recording. Drake, could you describe it
Drake: 02:59 Yeah.
Well, we were talking about about The Grand Inquisitor (chapter), and I
remember I first read that book in high school and then re-read it recently.
And it’s pretty life changing. But I do remember that chapter where one of the
brothers presents a poem to his younger brother. And in the poem––it’s set in
the Inquisition in Spain where many heretics have been burnt––and Jesus
appears. And the Inquisitor instead of celebrating or kneeling down or anything
like that, sends Jesus off to prison. And then comes down later, I think it’s
later that evening, to interrogate him and tell him how in refusing the
temptations of the devil––which is in I think Matthew and Luke section four or
something like that––how they damned mankind to be free and who they choose to
worship, to have freedom of conscience and have to try to be their own
conscience. And he, the Inquisitor talks about how the church has stepped in to
be that authority and to be what he thinks Jesus couldn’t be. Keep in mind, I
mean I have to keep in mind this is all Dostoevsky’s view of the church. But
what the Inquisitor lists off that he thinks that the church has provided for
people, that Jesus refused to give, is miracle, mystery and authority. And so I
feel like in Anne’s question of, “Can we be our own priests?”, well
then we have to ask like, is that necessary? Like do we want the authority of a
priest? Do we want miracle to come from, cause that’s another thing when you’re
talking about, you know, not wanting a priest. I feel like, I mean I know human
beings can be incredible, but I don’t look at them as exalted in that way. And
I feel like that’s something that rubs me the wrong way. If someone was to tell
me I needed a priest to have a relationship with God, I’d be like, well, I know
he’s studied the text more than I have, but what makes what makes them special?
Thea: 04:54 We’re
all creations of the, out of some divine.
Anne: 04:58 Right.
If we all have a divine spark in us, if we are all God’s children, why should
one have more authority over that relationship than another?
Thea: 05:14 And
I mean, and that’s wherewe were talking a little bit about the priest or
whatever the Holy person is in a tradition that they do provide that quality of
being a wise person, an elder or some sort of a guide like we just spoke of.
And then there’s also that these are people who are dedicating their lives to
this practice of this religion, of this tradition. And so therefore they’re
giving their time and energy and efforts in a daily practice that maybe
strengthens…The reason I’m saying this is because when you were saying that,
it’s like, yeah, do they have a direct line to God? Is it like their channel’s
a little clearer? And maybe that is what it is a little bit. Maybe their
channel and frequency is tuned in a little bit more clearly, and in a stronger
path to it because it’s been practiced.
Anne: 06:30 Well,
and because they are devoting themselves to that. Right? Whereas we’re raising
kids, we’re doing the work in the worldly world that is not giving us that time
or allowing that, allowing us to become as learned first off in that way so
that we have so many resources to draw upon, but also that we are not spending
as much time in prayer, in meditation, and perhaps in direct connection with
Thea: 07:05 I
mean that’s a question. That’s a possibility.
Drake: 07:09 I
think at least on the moral side of things. And in speaking to that sort of
like need for authority, like if we do have a need for authority, because it
seems especially like today, it seems a big claim to say that people have a
need for religious authority. It’s like you can just look around and be like,
plenty of people don’t seem to have that need. Right? But it seems fair to say
that we at least have some sort of tendency to want to, to look to a moral
authority when it comes to things. And we might want to escape it. But we so
often, like at least I know I so often want to appeal to something, to be able
to judge actions. To be able to look at myself, you know, have I treated these
people right? Like what am I going to compare that to? And when you’re talking
about people who’ve dedicated their life to something, it seems like that’s an
easy way to, to feel trust. Like this person is going to hopefully tell me the
right thing to do. They’ve dedicated their life to being able to tell me the
right thing to do.
Anne: 08:10 Yeah,
yeah. They’ve been studying this so much. They intimately understand it. They
have dissected it, they have contemplated it.
Thea: 08:19 And
they’ve observed, right? And had experience. And seen others.
Drake: 08:25 Well,
people are busy, right? Like, yeah, it’s hard. It’s hard to be able to do your
whole day at work or do whatever it is you’re doing. Take care of your kids and
then check in with yourself and be like, you know, how am I holding up to this
moral standard? That’s a whole extra level of work to do and trust in yourself.
Thea: 08:44 And
that takes us a little bit too, and I don’t know if I segue too much right
here, but the need of, what was it you said? Magic, mystery, authority?
Miracle, mystery and authority. But that we were talking about a little bit in
terms of this idea of being our own priest or priestess is having ritual,
having a practice of some sort that brings us back to that space of reflection
or meditation or whatever it is. Something that is part of our daily rhythm
that brings us to a space of that observation really, or contemplation in some
way. And I was saying that that’s what, you know, Hatha yoga came out as, I
mean that’s a practice for the householder to attain self-realization. You
know, because you are busy with life works of managing a household and children
and all of that. But then ritual, magic, when you were saying the need for a
moral authority, that, I mean our sense of that checking in with ourselves, but
also, I mean, we look at our world, we have a need for mystery and miracle, you
know, that is huge. And we see it in people’s excitement of tech, technological
advances. We see it in all sorts of these things that show a little bit of
mystery that we go Ooh. And miracle. Okay. So anyway, I went all over.
Drake: 10:42 So
that’s a funny thing looking at the, at the modern world, like I mean, so few
of the people that I know are a part of organized religion, and I know they’re
still so many people that are and have that as a part of their daily life. But
it seems like generally, or in many cases, we don’t want the miracle, mystery
and authority all in the same place. Like we still want those things, but to
have them all in one figure, it seems like, I mean, so when you’re talking
about us being our own priests, it brings back the conversation to like, well
would I want a priest to do that if I was going to have a priest, I don’t know.
Anne: 11:33 Well
so correct me if I’m wrong. I think where you’re going is that so the miracle
and mystery, well we can perceive certainly the mystery, right? We can perceive
that there is the mystery, and we might be able to bear witness to the miracle.
Right? But do we also then want to answer the question? Do we want to then
appeal to our own authority in making sense of all of it? Is that kind of what
Drake: 12:06 Right.
Yeah. Cause I mean that, that at times that seems impossible. Right? To, you
know, at the end of the day, come back and have yourself as the authority.
Thea: 12:20 Yeah.
Well, I wonder if there’s something else in that authority is that that’s a
thread to community and not being alone. When there is an authority and you, if
there are many that link to an authority figure in some way, that builds
Drake: 12:43 Right.
I feel like elders that I’ve known, you know who I’m thinking of. But like they
can be that figure in a community to some extent. I mean in a different way,
but still someone that another young person and I can look to and, and go, you
know, we’re going to be reverent to this person because look how much he’s
lived and look what he has to say. Let’s listen. Because if we’re both doing
that, it’s somehow affirming both of us, both of our experience in the moment,
right? Like if we’re both, we’re both hushing down when this older man is
talking or we’re both, you know, offering to help this older person. Like it’s
a shared reverence that shows we’re both kind of on the same wavelength.
Thea: 13:27 And
that’s one of the things that I think is so important. And I think maybe that’s
one of the things that comes out of the need for something outside of
ourselves. Is that sense of togetherness that we feel with others when we are
having something shared, something profound that we share.
Anne: 13:51 Well
so makes me think of a couple of things. Number oneI suppose this might seem
obvious, but the priest is channeling, presumably channeling communication with
God, connection to source and representing in some ways. A representative. The
priest is a representative in the same way, you know, you might say parents are
also representative to the child of the divine. We are an earthly manifestation
to channel that perhaps. And speaking to your point, Thea, and yours, Drake,
that, together we all revere, rightfully revere our elders, first of all. Our
elders and those who have experienced and become wise. And so even in revering
them, they do become elevated, right? And so…go ahead.
Drake: 15:13 Well,
right. And in that sense, they seem like a representative too, right? Like if
someone has made it to 80 years old and they look happy, they’re healthy. And
they’re talking about, you know, whatever it is, some experience or you know,
they’re telling their grandchild that was the wrong thing to do. And explaining
something to them. It seems that they’re representative of living a good moral
life. Right? And I’m sure there’s immoral old people…
Thea: 15:43 Well,
not all old people are wise. I mean, not all old people shine.
Drake: 15:50 Well
and not for everyone would you hush your voice as they, when they start
talking, because you have some sort of reverence., And I feel like with many,
many elderly people, that’s my initial reaction because they at least seem like
a representative of that. So when Anne’s talking about the priest being a
representatives and parents being representative, like you were thinking about
parents also as a representative of wisdom, too. Right?
Thea: 16:16 And
that’s what I was saying––or is it the same thing really like that not
necessarily only that vessel of communication from the divine or the source,
but the wisdom that comes through experience and observation, but from my
experience so far in the moments where I feel like I’m exercising wisdom, when
other things fall away and what’s left is that wisdom or that experience or
that compassion of truth, when the other things fall away, that to me there is
something in that that that is a channeling of what is good and true and, and
Drake: 17:05 Well,
it’s like, I mean to look, I feel to look at something similar to that in a
different way is like, it’s almost just like giving different things different
weight, right? Like seeing what’s really most important or what’s truly
relevant. Right. The other things falling away and being left with a single
thing in a given moment, in any given moment that this is the most relevant
thing right now. Even being in any dire situation and your wisdom or your past
experience is telling you, okay, this is exactly what we need to do right now.
And nothing else is important. It’s kind of going to one thing by itself all of
Anne: 17:41 Well
and so I would like to not go a whole lot longer this time. So I also am
hearing that the priest serves as one we can dialogue our experiences with. So
that we can find some objectivity to our subjective experiences. And I
explained, one of the reasons that I felt that having a priest, having a
middleman there to me is problematic––the other reason ismaybe this is too long
a conversation right now, but going back to The Grand Inquisitor the Grand
Inquisitor who was actually also the Cardinal, right? The Cardinal, the Bishop?
We find out later as he relates to Jesus that actually about 800 years ago they
started working with the other guy, right? And they are basically, they are,
they are working with Satan. And, and the people are none the wiser. So having
a priest in that capacity, in that role––it is ripe for corruption. Right? So,
you know, maybe this is something to explore beyond this conversation, but so I
see ideally now, and I understand even better ideally why we have a priest
outside of us to help us dialogue and relate to our source. But I do see some
problems with it. We have all seen the corruption around us and how that power
and authority can be and has been misused.
Drake: 19:47 Right.
And I feel like that that highlights again, looking for ways to be your own
authority because you can follow, you can, you know, through every chain of
like of authority, you can find someone for this authority to be accountable to
and someone for this authority to be accountable to and so on forever. And it’s
never going to be infallible, right? No person is going to be infallable.
Right? So it seems like, I don’t know, I feel like my takeaway right now is
that I’m my best shot in some ways.
Thea: 20:21 Well,
I think so. I mean, even when we have someone who we revere, we can hear that,
but then we still have to be coming to our own process.
Drake: 20:34 It’s
hard though. It’s hard to revere someone and not sort of fall into a blindness
regarding their faults.
Thea: 20:40 Well,
we have a tendency to that. But I think if, I mean, when I think of the
teachers I have who are doing it well, they don’t allow people to put them up
there and worship them. You know, they remember and remind of their humanity
and failings. Not that they have to lay their failings out, but there is, it
takes a real something to not let people worship you if you’re doing some
powerful work. And so I think in that, in ourselves as people who are looking
towards having elders and wise leaders among us, we have to remember that we
still have to bring it into our own process. I mean we’re talking about, at the
end of the day, that part of the practice of becoming our best self and being
of service to the world in a right way is to be able to have that checking in.
And strengthening that, that compass, I guess, of ourself, of our own
Anne: 21:54 And
perhaps to remember that it’s a relationship that we are required to
participate in fully, at least equally with any authority that we have granted.
And so that we have to continually be checking them and making sure that they
are also doing the work to deserve that authority.
Thea: 22:24 Right.
That we don’t hand it over blindly.
Anne: 22:27 Yeah.
Or get lazy after we’ve handed it over consciously, but then over time it’s
very easy to get lazy. So, I’m not sure what we’ve concluded on this one, but
it was a good exploration.
Thea: 22:47 Well,
it is. And I think that the one other thing I’d love to add to it though is
that in order for us to be our own guides and authorities or then even in equal
relationship to those that can offer that to us, is to have those spaces just
being in nature too. Because we were talking a little bit, and I won’t go into
it, but talking about creating places of worship or places that are Holy, and
nature is one of those that we all have. To make an effort when we’re living in
cities to be in that because it gives us that sense of connection, like a
direct line. I mean, that’s my experience of it anyway. You know, and it
charges that, it strengthens that current in us as people.
Anne: 23:47 Yes,
it is very grounding. It is the grounding, I think.
Thea: 23:51 And
uplifting. It’s grounding. I mean, it’s the whole thing. It’s like we become
clearer to be able to perceive what is there.
Anne: 24:00 Truth.
Truth. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I like that. Okay. Let’s end on that. I mean, you
know, you can’t go wrong with advising that people spend more time in nature.
That is, there is the quiet, there is the reverence automatically or just laid
out there for us. Right? It is creation.
Thea: 24:25 Creation.
Observation. I mean, when I think of the things I want to practice more, it’s
that, that quiet observation and I mean, observing anything in its natural
state is a good exercise.
Anne: 24:40 Yeah.
It’s a good reference point. Going back to references, right? Drake, it’s
resetting in nature and seeing this unadulterated creation gives us some
perspective to bring back into our manmade world to check it, to see if it kind
of stands up to truth.
Drake: 25:06 Right.
And when you were talking about representatives too, right? Like in nature, if
you can look at a natural, any little scene, right? Like a little pocket of
trees in a brook somewhere, it’s kind of in a harmony, right? So you can, you
can look at it as representative of things. Yeah. It does seem like nature
seems to work.
Thea: 25:27 It
does seem to work!
Drake: 25:29 When
left to its own devices. So when you were talking about priests as
representatives, and then we were talking about elders as representatives, to
just kind of look at these things as examples or exemplary of something good
that we might want to emulate, that seems like a path that it can take as well.
Anne: 25:45 Yes,
what, and that, that nature and being there in nature and witnessing all of
that perfection we can see that pattern and want to find that particular
beautiful, perfect pattern in at least the ideals of those that we grant
Thea: 26:17 And
even then in relationship, right? In the dynamics of relationship and the way
relating is happening, those dynamics of nature, the balance. Am I losing
something here? Maybe?
Anne: 26:31 We’re
just, we’re just getting very abstract here, but yeah. Okay. All right. All
right. Let’s cut it here and we’ll continue this dialogue in another one at
some point. Thanks you guys.
Thea: 26:45 Thanks.
Anne: 26:46 Hold
on one sec. Love you. Hang on one minute.
To move beyond the limited options of agnostic spirituality, atheism, or fundamentalist religion––we need to talk about it. And before we can talk about it, we need to think about it.
VIDEO TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Anne: 00:01 Okay. Here we are with a new guest Drake Mason-Koehler, my nephew, first and foremost Thea’s son. He’s home on break and he’s going to join the discussion. We’ve been having chats, discussions as we always do about some of the subjects that we’ve been talking about. And today we’re going to talk about God. And we’ve had a few discussions about this already, so we’re going to try to kind of just hit a couple of the points and go from there. I have lamented to these guys that––I live up in the Bay area in California and I don’t think people talk enough about God. I think that God, discussions about God, is met kind of with derision and suspicion. There is an atheist tendency up here and an emphasis on secularism that I think is throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Anne: 01:10 And
I say this as someone who has gone through myriad perspectives and explorations
and examinations. I was not raised in any particular clear tradition really.
And I’ve come to my own faith very experientially. And as anyone who is
familiar with Anthroposophy––I’m a homeschooler who follows a Waldorf
Anthroposophic curriculum and Drake was raised in the Waldorf schools, Thea
teaches in the Waldorf schools––we understand that religion, from the
Anthroposophic perspective, all religions are valid and are a manifestation and
expression of the consciousness of the time, the evolution of humanity. And no
religion is regarded as––even the ancient myths––they’re not regarded as fables
or misunderstandings, but an understanding of our connection to our source at
the time. So that being said you know, both Drake and Thea brought some
interesting points up. Drake, can you talk a little about your experience being
raised in Southern California?
Drake: 02:37 Yeah.
Well, and this is because we’ve spoken about this a couple of times now. Just
recalling that when you, initially were talking about the atheism that you’ve
run into up in the Bay area, just in your experience, my immediate sort of
complement to that growing up in Southern California ––and although I went to a
school where we learned old Testament myths or old Testament stories in third
grade, along with all the Greek and Norse and other myths that were part of the
curriculum––I still have grown up with so much agnosticism and not even just
agnosticism, but spiritual tendencies in the adults around me and gradually in
many of my peers as well. And not that I think that’s necessarily a bad thing,
but when it comes to discussions about God, I think that that led me to not
even really start thinking about God until just towards the end of high school.
And more lately.
Anne: 03:45 Can
I interrupt you just so that you can make it clear? I think what you’re saying
is when you, when you talk about this kind of agnostic spiritualism or
spirituality, sorry, you’re referring to a kind of nebulous spirituality that
doesn’t follow any, certainly any organized religion or firm tradition. Yeah?
Drake: 04:11 I
feel like I’ve run into a lot of that. And then also a lot of, “well, I
just don’t know. And I’m also not really interested in having a discussion
about what I don’t know or what I do know.” So it’s kind of maybe, I don’t
know what the, what the split would look like in terms of people who are going,
you know, “I’m spiritual. This is my belief which is kind of hard to put
your finger on exactly what it is. But they might, you know, hold it very
precious and that might be very good for them. But I think the emphasis of my
point would be that there hasn’t really been much on either end of the
spectrum. I haven’t known a lot of people who are very religious and I haven’t
known a lot of people who are very clear cut in their atheism. It’s all been
somewhere in between. And the majority of that in between has also seen an
unwillingness to stop and talk about it or to think about it because I think
the thinking about before the talking about it. So, yeah, that was, that’s kind
of where I came into this discussion.
Thea: 05:10 And
that came after also you articulating that we grew up in the Midwest where
there were a lot of very fundamental religions around us. And while that was
around us, we didn’t grow up with that in our home. Ours was sort of a
nondescript sense of God and faith, but not any clear delineated path within
that I guess.
Anne: 05:35 Yes.
We were raised by liberal academics so who were as you point out, I’ll let you
speak to this, but I think who were, as many people from that generation,
turned off to the hypocrisy of the organized religion that they had grown up
around or even with.
Thea: 06:02 Like,
like a lack of breathing within it. I think, you know, I mean, and that was
mirrored in a lot of aspects of the culture, too. I mean, the religious aspect
kind of, and the structure and strictures of life in this country. I mean, just
thinking of the social changes that were occurring in the fifties, sixties, you
know, so all of that was a reflection of all of it in a way, too. And so there
was this pushing away from that hard and fast structure and form because of the
many injustices that were seen and condoned by religious practices one way or
another. And that’s throughout all of history.
Drake: 06:47 I
remember, Anne, yesterday you were talking a little bit about sort of pendulum
swings, like going all the way to the other end of an extreme. So wherever you
might grow up you might go the other way, like both of you guys growing up in
the Midwest and then coming out to California where it’s a very different
consciousness than what you grew up in when it comes to spirituality and God.
And my follow up thought to that has been, well, what if you grow up where it’s
all agnostic? What if you grow up where there’s no, you’re not at any extreme
to swing from. Right? You don’t have that, like, trajectory to go look for.
Right? ‘Cause I think, needless to say, we live in a world where, you know, if
you’re so blessed that you have the opportunity to, to go to college or to go
and work in our world you get to forge your own path and you’re talking about
this kind of like forging your own religion or your own outlook on religion or
spirituality, whatever that might be.
Anne: 07:51 Okay.
We had a little technical difficulty. So Drake, would you just start from, you
were talking about, you know, for those of us who are blessed to forge our own
path I mean blessed to go to college, to forge our own path, that allows us
Drake: 08:09 Well,
I was thinking even just looking back at the beginning of this discussion, you
said your approach to religion or spirituality has been very experiential,
right? Like throughout your life, it’s changed or you’ve done work with it
based on your own experiences and what you’ve read, who you’ve talked to and
where you’ve been. And I think similar for you. So those are kind of like
individual trajectories that you guys have had and you’ve been able to come out
from your upbringing growing up in a more religious place, a different type of
environment, and then sort of forge your own way. So it almost, it seems like
that upbringing gave you a momentum, and I know it wasn’t like, you didn’t grow
up like super strict Catholic or anything like that. Also people don’t have to
escape it, like they don’t have to swing away from it, but it seems like when
it comes to coming to your own understanding of something or your own beliefs
where do you get that movement that would make you want to establish beliefs in
the first place? Is it just life happening to you that makes you want to,
“okay, I need to figure out, you know, what I believe is right and wrong?
How I think about children, marriage, grief, like all these other things and
scriptures and religion has a lot to say on that. And it’s not necessarily all you
need to be followed, but there’s a lot of good in it too.
Thea: 09:34 Yeah.
Well I don’t know if my thought quite follows precisely. I mean it still is in
there, but it gives me a picture of, you know, he was speaking about the
pendulum, that swinging and you were talking about earlier the streams. And
with that pendulum swing you have this momentum kind of like you’re shot out of
something, you know, so you have this force carrying you one way or another.
And then I was thinking that when there’s this sort of work that’s coming from
your individual experiences, it’s a little bit more like picking up a shovel
and digging, and you don’t want to be too far from the stream ’cause you still
need the current if you’re trying to create a channel. But it just gave me the
picture, ’cause today we went for a walk and it rained a lot last night. So
this path was just flooded and there were so many streams flowing. And I’m just
thinking that sometimes to forge a new stream, you know, you do have to pick up
a shovel for a bit and then it can kind of be filled in and have some of that
carrying from, not the pendulum, but just from the movement of the stream
itself. So that you can kind of, I don’t know, it’s not quite there, but a
picture that came with that.
Anne: 10:51 Well
so drawing both on our conversation from yesterday and what you just, you both
just said. So we talked a little bit about the fact that like, for example, especially
the last couple of generations in this country, given the nature of the economy
and the world more and more often people leave the places they grew up in,
leave the traditions, the families intermarry, live abroad, live on the other
side of the country. Meet, mingle and marry people who have come from widely
different backgrounds. And so one is exposed to many different streams and
traditions. At the same time, like Drake brings up scripture and these
traditions that have come up throughout humanity’s development, understanding
and need to figure out ways, codes guidelines and guideposts, those are also
valuable. And the flip side of us all moving away and finding new streams is,
the downside is that we also sometimes lose and abandon that which came before
us. So I think that we kind of concluded when we were talking yesterday that
what we’re starting to realize is that there needs to be––so we’re, we’re
entering the age of Aquarius. I think I brought up the fact that, you know, as
I see it, each epoch is about 2000 years long. And so we’ve come to that end of
our current form of Christianity––do we need, I mean, I’m talking about in the
Western tradition because we’ve all grown up in the Western tradition, so
that’s all I can really speak to, right? So is what we’re seeing around us is
that indicating a need to create a new stream, a new path that perhaps for the
first time in recent human history is informed by our individualism as equally,
if not more than our group…What’s, what’s the word I’m looking for, Drake?
Drake: 13:53 I
don’t know. Like our need for community or something like that?
Anne: 13:57 Well,
you know, we need, we need community, right? But, well, Thea and I had done a
talk a while back on claiming our authority and we emphasized the fact
that––certainly for us, we see the need to we have lived and, and strived to,
be our own authority, rather than look to the experts, rather than look to the
doctors the lawyers, the teachers, the priests. Not that that means we reject
what they have to offer, but I will put my authority above them all in my final
decisions about anything. And I think that this, there is a lot of that, there
is a lot of that impulse in people and they’re finding that groove in different
ways. Maybe one of them is simply and embrace of atheism, because they are
rejecting everything that came before them. Because they’re saying, no, that
didn’t work. But perhaps what needs to happen is we need to find something that
doesn’t then throw the baby out with the bath water. Because we are spiritual
beans, which I will say again only for my own personal, my own experience, but
I believe we are spiritual beings or we have a spiritual impulse, a
spirituality and we do need to speak to that. And materialism, reductivist
materialism, doesn’t answer that need in us.
Thea: 15:48 Well
it doesn’t hold the space for that mystery that is always present in some way.
But I’d like to go back just a moment, ’cause I think there was something you
said yesterday in our conversation that was really important to distinguish
when we’re talking about this sort of age of coming into this individual sense
of seeing. I want to find a better way to say it. It is reclaiming our
authority or claiming our authority, but also really the honoring of our own
seeing is part of that. But what you said yesterday, was there’s a difference
between individualism that is just self-serving and sort of narcissistic, as
opposed to a group of individuals coming together––I mean maybe you want to say
it––as opposed to a group of people who are all thinking the same or don’t have
their own responsibility of self quite there. But when everyone is an
individual and their work has been done through themselves to come to where
they are, there’s more power in that group of people working together towards a
shared goal than there is in a group of people following someone with a
somewhat shared goal.
Anne: 17:13 So,
basically that, you know, there’s a difference between a group of individuals
bringing their own unique skills, talents, perspectives, experience to the
table toward a, a shared goal––the evolution of humanity, let’s say
that––versus a collective of group think that is following one idea and path.
And so I think the way we concluded, and we want to wrap it up just to keep
this short, but we want to keep this going, I think, this is a good start. I
think what we determined perhaps is that there’s gotta be, there has to be
another path now. And so, you know, there’s, there’s a path beyond just the
choices of atheism, fundamental religion, nebulous, agnostic, spirituality.
Something else maybe needs to emerge and be formed. And new language must be
found for a new, experiential understanding of God, or our connection to source,
whatever that is for you. And the way to do that is to start talking about it
Thea: 18:28 Thinking
Anne: 18:29 Well
exactly. Like Drake says, you have to first want to even think about it before
you can want to start talking about it.
Thea: 18:36 Well,
and then that’s where the conversations come ’cause you have to show up, you
have to show up for the––now I’m thinking of baseball––show up for the game.
You know, you have to be able to stand at the plate and be like, yeah, let’s
bring this discussion up. Let’s bring this topic.
Drake: 18:50 Yeah,
’cause I was going to say, if you don’t––and it can be totally reasonable to
not want to be thinking about these things at certain times. But if you’re not
wanting to think about it and people start, you know, asking you questions,
pointed questions about your beliefs or what you think and presenting you with
what they think and all of that. It can feel like an attack or sort of like a
barrage of something coming in at you. And if you haven’t even wanted to start
thinking about it, I mean it’s going to feel weird. It feels like people are
trying to get you to think like them. Which is I think why discussions about
this stuff can be like…it’s so vulnerable. It’s so vulnerable for people to
say what they believe or that they don’t know what they believe and they’re
like, it feels like it’s a difficult thing to get past that before you say, I
want to figure out something for myself, whatever that might be. Because when
you were talking about materialists, I mean, I feel like, there’s so many
different types of people and there’s so much out there in terms of what people
have thought about these things. Like, I know there are ancient authors that I
haven’t read yet that don’t believe in God, but have a system of morals and
ways of thinking about things that is beautiful and can totally work for
someone to read and think about and be inspired and not necessarily adopted as
a sort of creed, but to feed into their own understanding of what their work in
the world is. So it’s like, yeah, starting to think about it.
Thea: 20:27 Yeah,
and if this ties in just a little bit. Yesterday we had briefly spoken about
this, which led to that reflection you had about the normalcy of leaving one’s,
place of birth and upbringing. And that came after us speaking about Arjuna and
his quest towards his seeing…
Anne: 20:52 For
anyone who doesn’t know what you’re referring to. Arjuna from the Mahabharata
epic tale of ancient India, right. As Krishna’s talking to him too, right?
Drake: 21:04 Yeah.
He’s about to, if I recall correctly, I think he’s about to fight his own
family, he’s about to fight, you know, half of his family members and he’s
like, how, how am I supposed to reconcile myself to this? Then I was
remembering from, I think it’s Matthew in the Bible where Jesus says that he’s
coming to take, you know, son from father and daughter from mother or something
along those lines.
Thea: 21:30 So
those pictures of having to let go of that which is familiar, to forge one’s
own path with honor and truth and dignity. And that is, you know, there’s a
part that’s necessary to throw off these things so you can see what’s sort of
left standing. And I feel like maybe that’s what epoch we are stepping into
now. It’s like, what, what’s left standing? What is there, something that we
can really protect and nurture and grow for humanity from this point? And what is
that relationship with God, source, a structure of morals.
Drake: 22:12 Well
also all these situations that we keep bringing up, it seems like there’s
something to do with, when you run into like, contradictions, like very
irreconcilable things like Arjuna having to fight his family and wanting to be
a virtuous person. Those seem to be impossible to reconcile those two things.
So it’s like, what does he do in that situation? And whether you want to do
exactly what he does is beside the point, but just getting to see what other
people do in these stories? And if that leads to conversation too, with other
people like, “Oh, what did they do when they ran into a super sticky moral
scenario? Where did they turn? How did they get through it in a way that they
thought benefited themselves and others?
Thea: 23:01 Where
the seemingly obvious gentle, compassionate route is actually the cowardly,
unhonorable or dishonorable route. Not to not have compassion. That’s not what
I’m trying to say, but what seems to be a general kindness may not truly be a
Anne: 23:20 Absolutely.
And, and the only way to really kind of push through those kind of black and
white choices, and push through to, to understand, embrace the complexity, but
still take action, one has to examine and explore that. And I think what Drake
has brought up to some degree speaks to the fact that we should not throw all
of that out in forging our new path, but take that, benefit from everyone’s
experience from history, humanity’s experience. Take it, examine it, discuss
it, discard, try it, try something different. And then form something new.
Drake: 24:17 Yeah.
I mean, it just seems like we’re going to have to take action, no matter what.
Right? We can’t just hide in our rooms forever. We’re going to have to go do
things. And so it seems like it might help us make better decisions as opposed
to just going, “I don’t know.” ‘Cause if you just say, “I don’t
know,” you’re going to find yourself in situations where you have to do
things, anyway. So, at least trying to know might…
Anne: 24:48 Because
you can sit in your room or you can sit in your community, and you can say it’s
all good and you know, and decide to not make a decision toward judgment, which
leads to action. But if you do that, the world is going to eventually exert its
influence on you and you’re going to have to then react. So let’s get out in
front of it. Let’s start talking about this more in a new way and find some new
language and new concepts to examine and discuss and go from there.
Thea: 25:31 And
I would even just say maybe they’re not new concepts, right? But maybe we do
need to find a new language so that those old concepts that are probably
timeless and ever present just need to be understood and digested and reused in
a way that we can understand now more easily.
Anne: 25:54 Because
truth is eternal, right? So truth is eternal, but our consciousness is ever
changing. And so we need to develop some new understandings, I think, in order
to incorporate those truths and most beautifully, powerfully, and positively
manifest them going forward into this new age. Into the Age of the Fifth Sun.
So let’s wrap this up. It’s getting too long, but let’s keep going. Okay? All
right. Thanks you guys.
To support one who is grieving, simply allow them to be––to be a mess, to be demolished, to be in grief. And to not be the same person you knew them to be before the grief. Because they are not––and they never will be again. And if you are the one grieving, honor yourself and your loss by allowing that in yourself.
Anne’s article describing her personal experience with loss and grief was written and published a few years after the death of their parents in 2002, 11 days apart. It was recently republished again this year in Grief Digest Magazine, entitled Responding to Life.
VIDEO TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Anne: 00:01 Okay.
So Thea and I are going to talk a little bit more about grief. We feel we’re
still, we’re feeling that thread still of grief and we were just reflecting in
a conversation we were just having on the fact that it’s probably partly the
season. Our father had passed at the end of October and then our mother, 11––I
never remember 11, 13 days later, whatever it was in the early November…
Thea: 00:32 Eleven.
Anne: 00:32 Eleven
days. And one thing I wanted to qualify is that the reason that I think we’re
talking about this as if we have a great deal of experience with kind of
intense grief is that part of it was the experience of caretaking our parents
from brain illness and injury over the course of some years. So it was very,
very intense, you know, when people lose the brains, basically, that’s an
intense process of caretaking. And then it happening when we were a lot
Thea: 01:20 It’s
almost at 20 years, I mean we’re going toward 20 years now.
Anne: 01:27 And
then, and then happening within the space of two weeks. So that was just all
intense, very intense and very magnified. So that’s partly why we are wanting
to convey what helped. We were just reflecting on the fact that if it happened
now, of course it would still be intense, but not as intense. So, we want to
talk a little bit about what helped us during that time practically. And I was
reflecting with Thea on the fact that one of the things I did during that,
especially that first year after it all happened and I was going through the
motions of life and work and dealing with the estate and all of these things, I
started drinking cream in my coffee where I had drunk black coffee before that.
But just to, to get out of bed and go to work, which was like, felt like it
required sometimes superhuman capacity. I started drinking cream in my coffee.
I started taking baths again. And I had lived in London, years before where
everybody takes baths and I had gone back to taking showers here in the States.
But I started taking baths, because it felt more nurturing. It was softer. It
was gentler. I started doing yoga a little bit, and as Thea can vouch for, I’m
not a yoga person, but I started doing yoga in the mornings. I had this funky
VHS tape that I had inherited from Thea or something, and I would do this 20
minute yoga thing in the morning and it nurtured me. It helped me. I also look
back on that time and realize, you know, I cocooned a lot and it’s kind of
against my nature, to be so insular, you know, I’m pretty out there, but I was
alone a lot. I wanted to be alone a lot. And I drank a lot. I wept a lot. I
cried a lot. And, and I remember at the time, friends, people close to me, kind
of trying to encourage me to get out of that, “Come on, you know, this
isn’t you!” and being kind of at odds with that, like, “Oh, this is
not me. What, what’s going on? What am I doing here? What am I doing?” And
I wish I had had the sense that I knew best and the sense to just allow that
process to happen without trying to force anything.
Thea: 04:34 Well
if I can chime in to that. This reminds me of the thought I had had when we
were chatting a little bit ago was that it wasn’t you. And like we touched on
last time, that there is that darkened space that we go into and we do––
allowing, allowing for that darkened space and time to occur like a cocoon. We
do come out something else. We become something else. We develop, we grow, we
change. But I just wanted to remark, because I don’t think I’ve thought of it
this way before, was that when someone that we love and make connections with
in this life leaves this world, the world is altered and therefore those that
are closely tied to that person do truly change because they fill the space
differently to be able to continue. And you know, when it is a connection that
is like one of those of loved people in our lives, it does alter us and we do
become something not ourselves while we’re in transformation. And I think even
just stating that if that, if that knowledge was more apparent for those people
who are supporting the grieving people that they will be different, and it’s
not really a helpful thing to convey.
Thea: 06:04 You’re
not yourself. No shit, you know? You won’t be, you know, I will be picking up
different threads of myself, but I’m weaving a new fabric. While I’m in this
cocoon. You know, we are changing. So if there’s a little more intelligence
about that process for people who are going through grief maybe or those that
are going through it, our own knowledge that we’re going to be different and
allowing for that without the guilt game of I’m not being myself for these people
in my life. I don’t know if I’ve gone too far astray, but I think that’s what
you’re speaking to. Wishing you had known that, you know best like listening to
that inner voice again that is asking you to do something different, you know,
is, is really valuable.
Anne: 06:55 Yes,
it’s definitely valuable. And it’s, and it’s good to talk to other people who
have been through it as we did, you know, over time. I also went to a grief
counselor. First time I had really done any therapy or any kind of thing like
that, and it was helpful for sure, to have that validated. I think that’s an important
thing to point out to others too though, who are there to try to, or those were
trying to hold it for someone else. Trying to support someone who’s going
through the grieving process. W.
Thea: 07:33 Which
is really a hard position.
Anne: 07:36 It
is. And I’ve read about this recently too, where people don’t know what to say.
They don’t know what to do. People who have not been there really don’t know.
And I think it’s important to just let those folks know that I think that all
anyone is…You know, when you’re grieving that deeply. And one other thing I
wanted to point out is like, you know, a friend had communicated recently about
it, who had lost her son recently and that, as I said to her, I can’t even
touch that, right? That’s, that’s many layers beyond. But what I can say is I,
I just, you know, I just send you my love, you know, I give you my love and,
and I grieve for you and with you, right? You know, you can say, I’m sorry for
your loss or whatever, but you know, I always, I found all that platitudinal
stuff kind of like, just, just be real. And just to know that that person,
honor that person by allowing them to just be going through that phase that
you’re describing, their transformation. They are not going to be what you
know, they’re not going to be what you are used to, and they’re probably never
going to be that again.
Thea: 09:18 That’s
Anne: 09:20 So
to, to accept that and encourage them in that rather than make them feel as if
they’re doing something wrong. Right?
Thea: 09:30 Right.
Yeah. I think what you’re speaking to also, and I, you know, when I look back
at people in my life when they’ve been going through their own grief and it’s
like, you know, we don’t want to say “I’m sorry for your loss” while
you are, is, depending on the nature of your relationship is a little bit like
“I’m here and I can relate and I’m here.” But we can’t, there’s not
much else. There’s not much else we can really offer.
Anne: 10:02 Yeah,
we can’t. That’s the thing. We can’t fix it. We can’t give them anything. We
can just hold that space for them to just be and to be demolished too. We can
hold the space for them to be demolished. To be all over the floor. To be a
mess. Let them be a mess. You know? And that’s what you and I spoke about a
little bit too. It’s like, you had used the word, I don’t think you said this
in the video, but you said, there was a part of you that, because the fabric of
reality had torn open…
Thea: 10:42 Or
Anne: 10:42 Altered.
There was a tear in it. (You Said), “It didn’t fit, it no longer fit. Your
life didn’t quite fit anymore.” So that’s something that we become aware
of more in any heightened state, I think.
Thea: 11:03 Right.
That you’re actually growing into a new way of being. When there has been an
alteration to the reality you’ve been engaging with. So allowing for that
growth and that shift and that discomfort. Kind of like if you have a new pair
of shoes, they take a bit to wear into the shape of your foot, right? Or your,
when you get used to a good pair of jeans. At first they didn’t feel so good,
but that takes a little bit of time and then you fit them right and they, you
fit them and they fit you. But it all takes a little discomfort for awhile.
Anne: 11:43 Or
more than that though I would say. I mean, I like your, your clothing
analogy––as anyone knows, Thea’s style and her clothes and her relationship to
clothes, it’s appropriate. For me on the other hand, like when we were talking
about the mess and, and being demolished on the floor––I think also give
yourself a break. And give anyone who’s going through this a break to, to
really screw up too in a way. Like make some, make some big mistakes.
Thea: 12:22 Which
I think we all, we all did.
Anne: 12:25 We
all did, you know, and it was challenging and hard. But also it’s like we had
to break some things. In order to then allow that new thing to form. We had to
break it down. Say that again.
Thea: 12:47 A
new emergence, like of oneself. Out of it. To break down ideas that we had
about ourselves that were held, I mean, in our situation, it being our parents,
that’s a different dynamic than a friend or a lover or a child. So different
things we had to break down to free ourselves even.
Anne: 13:10 Yeah.
I put it as, you know, we went a little crazy and that was okay. Because we
only went so crazy. We kept things going, but we went a little crazy. And then
we came back from the crazy.
Thea: 13:32 The
edges, I call it the edges. A little bit. Because we weren’t out of our heads,
I mean, we weren’t disconnected with what we were doing. We were really pretty
aware of the choices we were making in most of those moments. They were big but
we, we pushed past our edges maybe that we had kept ourselves in before. And I,
you know, I think what you said just about that, that initial time of intense
grief, it’s like finding whatever it is that is some sort of ritual for
you––cream in your coffee, baths, walks, talks, whatever––those little things
that can hold so much power. Lighting a candle, you know, I mean, I’m just
giving little things, making your, you know, whatever. I’m like thinking like
my shoe rack, little things that I could make really neat and orderly that
brought me joy because everything felt…
Anne: 14:32 And
tethering, right? It was a tethering, so whatever, you know, finding your
little rituals of tethering. To tether you while you also are flailing at the
same time through that.
Thea: 14:48 And
one more thing. I don’t know if this ties anything in, but I think there’s
those, those pictures that when you’re sharing of your sort of cocooning, and I
was saying a little bit of that spiraling inward because you tend to be more
outward and I, I don’t think I’ve put this together quite yet until now. I tend
to be a little more inward in many ways and I think in that period I was so
busy teaching and practicing, I kind of did the opposite.
Anne: 15:19 And
parenting. Yeah, you did.
Thea: 15:19 I
went out a little bit more than I normally would be. So that’s curious. I don’t
think I’d seen that until now.
Anne: 15:30 Yeah,
which pushed this other side of you like this, this other side of me. And
brought us to the wholeness that we are now! I joke!
Thea: 15:41 As
we go through new challenges and edge pushing. My God.
Anne: 15:49 Absolutely.
Absolutely. As we’re, yeah. As we are both going through other changes, and
we’ve also just reflected on the fact that having gone through that intensity
in our earlier years and, and then becoming accustomed to cycles and cycles of
grief does inform you to become accustomed to all cycles and that they do move
and they’re waves, and it moves in and out. And if you just kind of tether
yourself while you get through that, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Thea: 16:23 Yeah.
Anne: 16:25 There
we go. As nonlinear is all that was. Hopefully that’s, that’s something and
something. And Happy holidays to all the grieving people out there, because I
know this brings it up as it does the winter and all of that. Right? So, all
Grief can seem indescribably unbearable. But it gets easier, we promise. And it can transform and give birth to something positive––and widen, deepen and enrich our capacity and wisdom as we move through life.
Anne’s article describing her personal experience with loss and grief was written and published a few years after the death of their parents in 2002, 11 days apart. It was recently republished again this year in Grief Digest Magazine, entitled Responding to Life.
VIDEO TRANSCRIPT BELOW:
Anne: 00:00 Okay,
we’re recording. Okay. So we’re going to talk about grief today. And to inform
anyone listening. Thea and I both, and our sisters, lost both of our parents at
the end of 2002 after they both suffered pretty horrific, devastating brain
injuries and illnesses. Our mother from brain cancer at the young age of 52,
and our father from a brain injury following other health problems at the age
of 62. So that was pretty intense as anyone can imagine. Tt was not just the
loss, but also the years leading to the loss and how excruciating that was to
Thea: 01:07 And
the 11 days apart, you know, and the, the compact “pow” of the loss.
Anne: 01:10 Yeah.
It was. And, you know, I was Mom’s primary caretaker. She was not remarried.
Thea, she already had a family. So she also had a young child and she was
flying back, taking care of things as well. Then my dad’s secondary caretaker.
So it was just, it was so intense, right? As anyone who’s gone through loss
understands. And so we’ve been talking about this and I’ll post a link to the
article too that by chance I discovered––there was an article I had written
really not long after they died, but then I kind of held onto it and submitted
it for publication a few years later. So it was published about a decade ago
and it was just recently republished this year. So the first thing I think we
would like to talk about is to acknowledge for anyone who is suffering and in
grief grieving, going through the grieving process, that we get it so much and
that it is an experience that one cannot really convey or describe really,
unless you’ve stepped through that door. And we’re aware of the fact that the
world does not see or acknowledge what you are going through as you are walking
through your day to day life, trying to just cope with an unbearable,
indescribable pain. You know, I mean, it makes me want to cry when I’m––I don’t
know why I’m in touch with it recently. And that is the weird thing about
grief, it is always there, but it gets much more manageable and it transforms
and there’s a beauty. There is as much beauty to the pain as there is the pain,
I think over time, you know? And so yeah, you know, a couple of friends of mine
have just suffered very close losses. So that’s been a topic we were just
Anne: 03:44 Ricky
Gervais’ After Life––it’s a new Netflix series and it’s remarkable. It’s
extraordinary. His comprehension, his understanding of grief and his ability to
portray it. It’s very good. I highly recommend it. So, I think what we want to
talk about a little bit right now is, and let’s look at our time. As we had been
talking about even in last week’s conversation, which we entitled Responding to
Change and many other of our conversations have been kind of in keeping with
this theme of our responses to what life presents, right, and how impactful it
is. How our response to what comes obviously significantly influences our
life’s experience. And others’, you know, in this case with grief, others’
response to what we are going through is also impactful. And that article I
wrote about touched on how the lack of our society’s observance of grief, of
what people are going through. There is as I had written in the article,
there’s a short period of time where your loss is formally acknowledged, but
maybe it’s our busy world, our busy society, our busy everyday hectic pace. I’m
not sure what it is. I also think there’s something unhealthy in the way we
cope. I think there is some times a sense of putting on a face. I think there’s
a sense of kind of faking it––that we, that we should, you know, just appear as
if things are okay.
Thea: 06:10 If
it doesn’t interrupt your thought too much, I think there’s something that I’m
seeing when we’re articulating it is––your article says so eloquently really
how you’re given this space and time, brief period of time where it’s
acknowledged and then it kind of just slips away, but you’re still holding it.
And that’s really the time where the burden gets heavier. And because the
shock, depending on what grief stages or how it comes to someone, you know,
ours was, I can speak from that experience. That was, it was just so intense.
And, and because it was so intense for us, I felt like, you know, everything
was blown apart, all of our reality in a certain way. So, so taking us to our
knees that the only thing that could come through was grace. Like it carried us
through the horrificness of it in a way. And then after the shocking part sort
of starts to wear off, that’s when the new stages of that grief start to come
in, in a more thunderous way in a sense. And what I’m seeing in this though is
like, different cultures have different observances. You know, maybe you wear
black for a year or whatever it is because it really does take that length of
time. And our culture–we don’t do that so much in any real way.
Thea: 07:48 But
what I’m seeing is that we have the observance for this short period, and then
you have the funeral or the celebration of life or whatever it is, but it’s
like boom, boom, boom. And it’s like the meaning again is getting lost and it’s
the image rather than the essence. Even the advice that you’re given through
grief counselors to not make any big changes, which you speak to really well in
the article, but it’s again, it’s like it gets lost. The words, the meaning,
the intent, the impulse that’s sound gets distorted. And then it’s like you’re
standing in nothingness.
Anne: 08:31 It’s,
you know I remember how I worded it and I don’t want to repeat exactly how I
worded it, but basically it’s cautioning us, right? To not be reactive. To not
be reactionary, maybe is a better way of putting it. But in so doing, it’s kind
of throwing the baby out with the bath water. So yes, we should not, it’s
helpful in life to not react impulsively without thought, without care. But
that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t respond. Right? And that we shouldn’t act upon
the process that we’re going through that we shouldn’t act upon some of the
instincts or the awarenesses or changes that it’s bringing up in us. Right? So
that’s one thing I think that it goes hand in hand with the way the culture
observes our loss as well. It’s true that we have to get on with it. Right?
And, you know, I remember in the midst of it, and I have since kind of lamented
how challenging it is with a death. So the person who’s been caretaking
experiencing incredible loss after they’re already exhausted from the
caretaking, and then they’ve got to do all this other stuff after the death,
all the legal stuff, all of the you know, the estate situation.
Thea: 10:21 The
Anne: 10:26 The
business of it. But, there is also something necessary in that because it keeps
you moving, you know, and there is a tethering there, as unpleasant as it is,
so that you don’t kind of go off the deep end. Not to say that one doesn’t at
times go off the deep end. And I would say I, you know, those first couple of
years were almost debilitating. Right? I mean, it was just, you know, I drank a
lot, you know, and I sheltered myself a lot. I did go through the motions and I
did what I absolutely had to do. But other than that, you know, it was, it was
rough as you know.
Thea: 11:16 And
I know that too. You know, I think so much of the way grief comes to us or what
we’re given through it–– knowing that I had a child to take care of, it
minimized the spaces I could even go into. So they kind of came in a softer
current over years because I had a living proof purpose that I had to keep
going for. Right? And that changes things.
Anne: 11:46 Yeah.
Totally. You couldn’t, you couldn’t fall down. Right? And so that also means
that probably it may have lingered longer. Your process may have just been
elongated you know, but who’s to say? Right? Cause it’s still, I mean, there
are still times, once in a great while, I will like, I’ll weep. Right?
Thea: 12:11 I
Anne: 12:11 But
also you know, on the flip side, for anyone going through it, God, I mean, as
devastating and difficult as it’s been, I’m grateful to them for the gift that
they gave us in that. I would not be who I am. I would not be the mother I am.
I would not be…There’s so much that it deepened in our experience, right, to
have gone through that. So there’s some good stuff that comes from it, you
know, with all of life’s, you know I mean it’s cliche again, but the deeper the
suffering, the deeper the experience, the deeper the wisdom I think.
Thea: 13:13 Right.
And that goes, we spoke just for a moment beforehand is like, yeah, as, we love
more, as we grieve more and feel the depths and breadths, and all the angles
and spaces of feeling––I mean these are the things that make us really human.
It allows, I mean, I feel for myself, it’s allowed me to become a bigger
person, more able to meet more people where they are. The more experiences I
have, the wisdom, right? The more that there is a reflection within me to
another, the more we share, the more we connect, the more we serve our purpose
being here on Earth.
Anne: 14:00 Oh
gosh. And it reminds me of a comment a friend made on my Facebook page when I
had just posted that this article got republished. And she had lost her mom.
And she said, you know, it makes one aware, it’s a reminder that we don’t ever
know what anyone else is going through as they’re walking through. Right? And
so when you’ve gone through this yourself, it brings an awareness to you always
that there are many layers there in everyone. It brings a compassion to I think
one’s interactions with everyone and any one, because you start to reveal or
you start to realize that so much more may be happening, has happened. You have
not walked in their shoes. And that we really, this life, there are few that
escape, you know, sorrow and pain in this life. And so just that awareness and
compassion brings such a dimension to our relationships, our regard for people
and the world really.
Thea: 15:19 Because
within sorrow, I mean, I want to say healthy sorrow, because there’s tragedy
that is like, there feels like a wrongness in, you know, an injustice. But
there’s, when there’s the healthy sorrow, I feel like within that is a real big
seed of what’s beautiful. You know, it brings us to that which is––beauty, you
Anne: 15:50 It’s
a sweet sorrow. It’s a sweet sorrow. And it’s like having gone through that
experience, going through this kind of experience and similar experiences, it
definitely, like, it reveals that layer to existence. And we probably should
start looking to wrap it up soon, and I’ll only touch on this now, but I mean,
beyond the deepening, I mean, it’s, you know, I discovered my faith through
that process too. And when I say that, I’m not saying a particular, an
organized religion or denomination or, you know, and as I’ve said to people who
I’ve gotten into discussions about this with, it’s like I feel that it’s much
larger than any one particular organized set of beliefs, but a kind of you
know, an all encompassing understanding connection to my source, connection to
the divine, connection to other realms. And it’s, you know, it’s been a gradual
process for me really since the deaths of my parents. And it’s been an organic,
beautiful thing too. And one that feels very experiential. I remember a friend
of mine who a German friend of mine who, who lives here in California where
it’s really, people don’t talk a lot about God and faith here, in the Bay area,
we’re in the Bay area. There’s almost a disdain for that. Right? And he had
remarked that it has really struck him how I didn’t, I don’t have this from
having been raised in it, you know, ’cause we were raised kind of half assed
Thea: 18:07 But
I would say my experience was there was a sense of intelligence and divinity,
the acknowledgement of God in our life even though it wasn’t through any direct
channel or picture. But that picture that there is, there’s meaning and purpose
Anne: 18:33 Yeah.
An understanding of there being more than we are seeing. Yeah. Right. More than
is visible. I agree. But, he was remarking that, you know, that it came to me
through experience in this way as opposed to where it’s come through for him
and through practice. But anyway, you know, I won’t get off on a tangent, but
there’s something so beautifully rich in the experience. Go ahead.
Thea: 19:09 Well,
I want to say, I don’t think it’s quite a tangent, but I think it will be a
thread to come back to that we explore a little bit more because I want to
reiterate again in our dialogues that we’re sharing together here. These are
our reflections from our experiences and our understanding of those experiences
and the way we then choose to engage with our life and the world and the people
in our lives. And it’s not so much about is someone testing, has this been
proven? This is through our own experience, which I think, what I want to wrap
it into a little bit is––losing, having our parents move on at our young age,
which felt very young at the time I think removed, I think I said this, I
remember feeling it when, when it was going on, just that when they were gone,
there was no longer any image of a guidance or you know, mother, father,
between myself and God. So my relationship to whatever I call God, source,
whatever, became even more clear and tangible for me because there was nothing
in between it. I didn’t have anything separating it. And I think what that has
brought to me through my own journey and you, is what I perceive is a gift and
for me to do something with. So it’s, it’s like, it’s allowed me to develop
that capacity more and more and more to listen to myself, to listen to what I
Intuit or instinctively respond to. You know, trusting oneself because knowing
oneself is more than just me. Like that there’s wisdom that moves through and
shows itself to me through my experiences. So, yeah.
Anne: 21:14 Absolutely.
Thanks for making that distinction. Thanks for making that distinction. Yeah.
It’s, once again, it’s you know, I’d made this comment recently, but there is
some knowledge, there is, there is information that sometimes cannot be
transferred through language or books or teaching, but only through experience.
Right? It’s when the veil drops, you know, or when we walk through a door. So
anyway, it’s an exclusive club. So anyone who has experienced it, welcome to it
and promise it gets better and there’s so much richness to the experience that
one can be in and does become quite grateful for. And we’ll probably touch on
this more next time.
Thea: 22:09 I
think we should. And I just, there’s one more thing now I have to say that as
you say that there’s more richness. I feel a little bit like it is that
experience, because at first through it, things become more dull and it’s kind
of like you’re going into a cocoon a bit and the veils wrap around you. And
then when you pull yourself back through that, the world is more vibrant again.
It changes. But you do go through a darkness.
Anne: 22:40 You
do, you do. And so do not expect all of a sudden, “Oh you know…”
There is a deadening and a darkness to it at first, but you have to go through
that to come out to a brighter light.
Thea: 22:54 Yeah.
Well thank you so much. I look forward to us talking more about it ’cause
there’s so, so many other spaces within it for us to, you know, think about it
as the culture of how to alter and change and support or develop new ways or
old ways to honor the grieving process when each individual goes through it. So
it can be a transformative space that’s recognized and really honored.
Anne: 23:26 Yes,
I agree. All right, we’ll think on that.
Our response to challenge and change is informed by our perspective––are we part of an infinitely complex, purposeful design or is our existence merely accidental?
Anne: 00:00 Recording to the cloud.
So we’re doing this a little differently this time because Thea’s here, we’re
hanging out, and we’re very relaxed here in a circle of redwoods. So what we’ve
been talking about is how we respond to change, responding to change,
responding to challenges, obstacles that life presents us with and recognizing
that something helpful to inform one’s experience in reacting to change is to
recognize that this is either intended to be a school or there’s certainly
opportunities to learn and grow from these experiences and that it makes it
much easier to move through without resistance, as much resistance––or to move
through with more grace, to move through with a focus on understanding the
experience as much as one can and moving through it rather than resisting it or
Thea: 01:30 And even moving with it
while it moves through, I think, is something as opposed to resisting, but to be
able to see when there are these obstacles or challenges that come into our
lives that are pushing us into areas that are more uncomfortable or unknown,
how to sort of listen to the signals, listen to the current that’s moving with
you and use the current to continue your movement wherever it is your goals are
or…destinies as opposed to trying to turn around in the current, as opposed
to pushing past it. I don’t know. I’m losing the analogy.
Anne: 02:28 No, I agree. I mean…
Thea: 02:30 …Which allows for a bit more harmonious, enjoyable moving down…
Anne: 02:35 You also have the
opportunity in that then to find your true path. I mean, it rarely looks
exactly like you thought it was going to look like, right? And so to be open to
the possibility that you’re being redirected in ultimately a positive way, if
you can just kind of work with it, you know?
Thea: 03:05 Right. That what comes to
you is of a good nature and you are to find ways to work with it. To continue
Anne: 03:17 Yeah. Right. And even the
things that come to you of a bad nature, we can speculate that that will assist
our growing as well. Depending on how we respond to it, and identify and
Thea: 03:29 Well that’s what I’m
saying––how we respond to it I think is what makes it good or bad, more than it
may be. That’s what I’m just wondering. It’s like everything that comes up is
there to show you something. Now it may be that you veer a little bit away out
of that sector, you know, maybe it shows itself so you can go, “Oh, I need
to reroute a little bit like this.” But that everything that comes is of a
nature that is there for you to see and to utilize it, is basically what you’re
Anne: 04:03 Absolutely. I mean, I
don’t think we’re here by accident. Let’s put it that way. Or you can choose
to, you know, live that way. Good luck. You know, if you think that this is
just an accident, I don’t know, whatever works for people. But it certainly
resonates much more for me and makes much more sense to me that there is a
purpose to it because whatever I observe around me demonstrates that there’s a
perfect purpose to everything, you know, to the interaction of, you know, these
trees to the earth, to the earth to us, us to the trees and all. It’s a pretty
perfect design. So the idea that we’re some accidental blip in it sounds
ridiculous, but anyway.
Thea: 04:54 Sounds just preposterous.
Anne: 04:54 It’s like the most
make-believe fairy tale, right? That doesn’t make sense. That sounds like
fiction. Anyway, we’re getting off on a tangent.
Thea: 05:08 A little bit. So it
started with, how did we start this, finding grace in the movements and change
Anne: 05:16 How we respond to change,
basically, and what can help us, what can inform us?
Thea: 05:22 And we can take that to
an analogy of birth a bit. I mean it’s a little bit like, here comes the next
phase. It’s uncomfortable and difficult and scary, cause you don’t know. It’s,
I think, what did I say last conversation we had was it’s unbelievable, the
space that you’re being asked to go into. You don’t have a reference for it.
You don’t have anything you can liken to it. And then still the only way
through it is to unfold a little more.
Anne: 06:00 Well the only way through
it is forward. That’s the main thing.
Thea: 06:04 Forward. But the forward
comes with a pushing. There is a pushing, right? And there is a contracting,
but simultaneously there’s an opening, there’s a letting go in the contracting.
So you’re having both those forces at the same time, practically. Right? This
and this. The gloves, sorry.
Anne: 06:27 No the light’s moving.
It’s a pretty light, but it’s kind of like…can’t see us at all.
Thea: 06:31 Blinding?
Anne: 06:35 Oh, look what happens
there. When I do that and move it slightly. Let’s see.
Anne: 06:40 This is to continue on
from where we were because we started building on this.
Thea: 06:47 And we wanted to clarify
and explore a little bit more what we were discussing about when something
comes. That essentially the nature of reality, what comes to us, what thoughts,
what challenges, whatever it is, is good. And that doesn’t, it’s not, or maybe
it is the same as “It’s all good man,” because it is, but there is
Anne: 07:18 So my point was like, I’m
loathe to get into, you know, relativity because I think that can go astray so
quickly, but like we were touching on in the discussion sometimes yesterday. I
sense, I’m eager to get beyond the duality, too. Like, there’s more to it,
there’s more dimension here. And so I think you talking about then accepting
that the ultimate nature of reality is good. Well, and is God right?
Thea: 07:52 And is God. And so that
that comes, is good. And it’s in how we meet that which comes, that determines
our experiences of good or bad, but the good is there as the foundation of it.
And so do, do we struggle with it? Do we rail against it? Do we look at what
it’s asking us to bring, to show, which then allows the good to come. I mean, I
don’t know, I felt like I was more clear about it a little bit ago, but
there’s, there’s like the layers of it as they come to us. It’s like the
underneath current, that which is existing all the time. That is good.
Anne: 08:45 And that’s what I feel
like it relates to the whole point of me saying, you know, I don’t believe
we’re accidental. You know, the idea of us being accidental, of there not being
an infinitely complex plan at work or design at work seems absurd––I think if
you’re walking through life fairly aware.
Thea: 09:07 I mean, and then if we
even think of just an ultimate-ish plan being the macro of the microcosms that
we’re living in every moment, I mean.
Anne: 09:18 It all contributes, it’s
all part of it. Existing on so many levels and layers within ourselves, within
our stages of development, of humanity’s development, within every and all.
It’s complex. But I suppose what it comes down to is, you know, I think
probably it’s looking at it one way or the other. It’s either that this is by
design and therefore purposeful. Every moment is an opportunity to act with
Thea: 09:54 True. Yeah, I think
that’s huge. That’s liberating. That’s empowering. That’s everything really.
Because if all those things, I mean, and I’m even talking like the little
thoughts, you know––and we’ve shared this living and knowing each other for so
long––you know, if you’re leaving the house and there’s that little blip that
says check, check if the whatever, the window’s closed or the fire’s off or
grab your keys or grab a hat. Those times that we don’t listen to those little
things, we then look back and go, Oh, I did know. I’m taking that as the thread
of all of it because it’s there.
Anne: 10:44 It’s intelligence.
There’s an intelligence there.
Thea: 10:44 There’s an intelligence
and intelligibility. It’s there for us to pay attention to or to ignore, and
that sort of sets our route.
Anne: 10:53 And so getting back to
moving through challenges, meeting challenges, how we face our obstacles and
move through life. That is what sets the tone. That is what informs the way we
Thea: 11:12 Yeah. And is it
purposeful? Is it meaningful? That depends on what we choose, like how we’re
able to perceive it because it is, we’re either aware of it or we’re not.
Anne: 11:26 Right. And probably
learning and growing either way. Right? Hopefully. Sometimes we can get pretty
Thea: 11:38 And God, I mean, It’s
like even those getting stuck, Oh, we were likening this to an analogy of birth
later on in our conversation. We didn’t get there yet, but even that, right? Is
there some something that getting stuck for a moment and then you find a new
route through it, but you have to sometimes surrender then to that being stuck.
I am stuck, and then something else can move or you can get back into the
movement or be picked up by the movement.
Anne: 12:12 Well because you know, a
theme that has come up in other discussions I’ve had recently is just that
everything is moving, and so it’s when we try to when we put on this pretense
of it being static, it makes the whole thing way harder, right? It’s always
moving. So we just have to––I mean this sounds, it always gets down to the
platitudinal, trite cliches.
Thea: 12:50 Well there’s truth in
Anne: 12:50 Yes, they’re here for a
reason, but that’s the “going with the flow.” And you know, I don’t
mean it in that way.
Thea: 12:58 Well, here’s the thing
though, as you were saying, being static, being without movement, that’s what
creates the static and what earlier in some conversation we were having, I was
thinking that’s part of––oh, talking about the birth or the moving through
obstacles, the unfolding or the shucking off of that which is staticky. Like
those little pieces that aren’t in the flow. The more we let go of those with
less and less of our own resistance to them being let go, the freer we are in
that flow, the more strong the current is and the clearer it is, whatever it
is, however, moving.
Anne: 13:42 Totally. Well that’s also
you know, it’s casting away expectation of what one thought it was going to be,
look like, or whatever. That’s one thing, is being able to do that quickly. It
makes you get through things a lot more quickly and more easily I think with
less resistance. But also, it strikes me to then bring up the fact, the
importance of then what foundational principles are you holding onto? Because
we have to hold on to something, right? To get us through whatever it is. So
what is the foundational principle that allows you to just with grace, with
dignity, with courage, with faith, faith, faith. That’s the biggest part of it,
right? With faith. So are those? Those are the foundational principles, right?
Thea: 14:39 Like every religion has these tenets, ways of being that you hold onto. And so those are the framework. Those are the structure. That’s like the bones of it all for everything else to work around.
Anne: 14:57 Exactly. But you know,
the words can stop losing their meaning. Right. And that’s the problem with
Thea: 15:06 And that’s why there are
aspects that we’ve had conversations about. It’s like we’re in a time of
developing a new language. Language is constantly moving because things start
to mean different things when they lose their, their root to the meanings. So
sometimes we have to find ways to revitalize those meanings. And even maybe
it’s just bringing the depth and breadth of these things to go with the flow. I
mean all these phrases. They’re all in it.
Anne: 15:45 The Tao, yeah. I think we
should cut it.
Thea: 15:58 I think it’s done. I
think it’s done. Yeah. Well, there might be more thoughts that come up.
Anne: 16:03 There may be! All right.
See ya folks.
Both my kids were born at home. People have often remarked on the courage I must have had to have made that choice. It wasn’t courage––it was a desire for a comfortable, supportive birth environment I knew was the best bet for my kids and me to avoid unnecessary trauma and intervention. There are times when medical intervention is necessary, but most of the time, the medical system itself and its medicalized birth practices create the issues which lead to intervention in the first place.
Our bodies are designed to give birth. Fit, healthy women in most cases should be able to deliver their babies naturally––if only they are allowed to. I was 37 years old with my first pregnancy and 40 with my second. My husband and I eschewed all the tests and screenings recommended for “a woman my age,” as we were committed to bringing our children into the world, regardless of what abnormalities or issues such screenings might suggest. And we were blessed with two wonderfully healthy children born without complication or intervention.
I remember being questioned about our choice to birth at home when I was pregnant with our eldest. Well-intended friends pointed to historical maternal and infant mortality rates as an argument for hospital birth. A closer look at the history, however, largely implicates hospitals and doctors in the staggeringly high maternal mortality rates from puerperal fever in the 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries––in which it was common practice for the medical profession to examine pregnant women and deliver babies after performing autopsies, WITHOUT WASHING THEIR HANDS. As Suzanne Humphries, MD and Roman Bystrianyk emphasize in their landmark book “Dissolving Illusions: Disease, Vaccines, and the Forgotten History,” puerperal fever’s massive maternal death toll profoundly impacted the fabric of society. It is no wonder this tragic and largely avoidable episode in recent human history influences our fears surrounding childbirth.
Furthermore, the medical system in the US is the cause of so many deaths that researchers from Johns Hopkins wrote an open letter to the CDC to request that CDC change its record collection criteria to accurately inform the public of this alarming statistic. With medical errors being the 3rd leading cause of death in our country, the hospital hardly seems a sensible environment for a healthy expectant mother to deliver her healthy baby into. On the contrary, the mother and baby would seem at less risk of fatal complications in the safety of their own home, attended to by trained midwives.
Beyond the health and safety of the mother and child, there are many more reasons to deliver at home. In the privacy of her own home, the mother is allowed to labor at her own pace. She can labor in the comfort and quiet of her own bedroom, bathtub or birth tub. While her midwives monitor her and the baby’s vitals throughout, they are unobtrusive and respectful, and they accommodate her timing, not theirs. She is not surrounded by or attached to any machines and monitors, and she is able to move her body freely.
Without intervention or epidural, labor proceeds naturally, as baby and mother coordinate their rhythm and contractions to bring the birth. The midwives do not pressure the mother to take Pitocin to induce labor. She is allowed to proceed as her body and her baby’s body dictates.
Family members or chosen friends are the only other people in the home, quietly and respectfully on-hand to support the laboring mother and whatever she may need at the time. A hushed reverence pervades the scene. And when the baby arrives, he or she is welcomed into the quiet, warm room, surrounded only by loving family, friends and trusted midwives the mother has gotten to know well over the course of her pregnancy.
Newborn baby and mother remain together in the comfort of their bed, while over the next couple of hours the midwives gently monitor, record birth stats and care for the mother (one of my midwives even brought me a plate of scrambled eggs after the birth of our daughter, as she felt I needed the protein). Once they determine all is well, they pack up their oxygen and equipment, hug the new mother, kiss the new baby and go home, only to return the next day and beyond to continue post-partum monitoring and care.
Mother and baby, big brother and father fall asleep in the comfort of their own beds. What a lovely way to welcome this new member of the family. And what a lovely way to come into the world.
What better entry into the world than the loving sanctuary of one’s family home? The medicalization of birth in the US may account for its alarmingly high infant and maternal mortality rates––so let’s take a closer look when evaluating which environment poses the bigger risk.
**NOTE TO VIEWER/LISTENER: Anne read from a few online articles she had printed out right before their chat, but the print outs didn’t display a few things properly, and she guessed at source and date of a couple. The piece she thought was from Harvard Medical Review was actually from Harvard Business Review (link below), and the NPR piece on the Johns Hopkins study was from May 2016 (link below as well.)
We’ve included a few additional links as well, in order to help anyone get started in doing their own research about the risks and benefits of natural home birth vs medicalized hospital births. The transcript to the video can be found below the links:
Anne: 00:05 So we decided we want to
talk about home birth this episode, and it follows on a friend is coming up to
having her third child and has decided to do a home birth. And we were talking
about it, and given that you had all of your boys at home, your healthy boys at
home, and I had both my kids at home, and our mother had our youngest at home,
we have some experience with that and thought it related to a lot of the other
discussions we’ve had about empowerment, authority, autonomy, self
responsibility and more. (That’s A loud, long train horn!)
Thea: 01:09 You know, it all depends
on the personality, I think, of the train driver. They vary. Sometimes it’s
Anne: 01:19 And what kind of day
they’re having! So, just to start out with a couple of thoughts, and we’ll go
from there. A lot of times I’ll be in a group of women or be talking to women
about birth, and having had a home birth, and those that haven’t had that
experience will often say, “Oh, how brave. You’re so brave.” (Wow.
That guy is really agro!) So yeah, they’ll say, “Oh, you’re so
brave.” And I always say, “No trust me, I think you’re the brave
one.” The women who manage to have uncomplicated births without
intervention, according to the plan that they had set forth when they came into
the hospital––I can’t really even imagine having that experience. How much
harder you would be to have had you know, as gentle a birth as birth can be.
Thea: 02:30 Right? Yeah. I mean, as
birth is this place of absolutely power and vulnerability at the same time, and
to be in a situation that you aren’t even really comfortable or quite relaxed.
I can’t even fathom.
Anne: 02:52 I mean, any woman who’s
gone through this knows––you’re in a different state of mind.
Thea: 03:01 If you’re allowed to be.
And I wonder about that too. I mean, I think, I don’t know, I haven’t done it
in the hospital. And I wonder if women who have given birth in hospitals have
had varying experiences of being in that altered state. Or not.
Anne: 03:18 Or if they have to always
kind of be on in order to say no or to watch what’s going on––I mean, just
alone, so, you know obviously complications can happen in any situation, right?
But first off most midwives are incredibly experienced at delivering babies,
actually delivering them, not C-sections, but actually delivering them. And
delivering them in a number of different circumstances. I mean, my son for
example, the cord was wrapped around his head as happens In think in like a
quarter of births. Right? My midwife who delivered our daughter, helped me
deliver our daughter, she worked in the back countries of Amish land, right?
She delivered twins, she delivered breech babies. She could do anything, you
know? And it was wonderful to be in the hands of someone so beautifully
experienced, no matter what came up. And of course, midwives, they bring the
oxygen, they have a lot of things at their disposal right here at the house.
And they have relationships with doctors at hospitals so that if you need to
transfer, you can go there. But. Provided it goes just the normal course,
you’re in your own home, you’re in your own bed or bathtub or whatever you choose.
You are able to go at your own pace. You don’t have to speed it up or, or
either say no constantly to Pitocin or finally accept taking Pitocin to
stimulate your contractions in order to get things moving because the hospital
won’t allow you to be there for longer than a couple of days, et cetera. Right?
So many things. And on top of it, you don’t have to worry about people coming
and checking, taking blood, all the things, who knows. I mean, I have no idea
what it’s like ’cause I’ve not done it except for having watched documentaries
on the difference between those types of births. But you know, you don’t need
to be hooked up to machines. You don’t have the constant intrusion of people
coming in and out. And more. So it just facilitates the birth experience
happening healthily and smoothly.
Thea: 05:53 It does. As so many
pieces of literature about the space of birth liken it to love making in a way,
too. Because anything that requires a space of settling in, relaxing, letting
down, opening up––t’s a very intimate experience. And picturing love making in
the hospital, they don’t go so well together, you know. So I think that’s one
picture. And another thing that was sparking in my mind while you were laying
out those examples is––being a midwife, which is “with woman”, is
“with them, is much like being a parent, knowing when to intervene and
when to stay back and allow the process to simply occur. And you’re frankly
allowing that space to be there. We’re doing that as parents for our children.
Sometimes failing, sometimes being right on point. We’re doing that as
teachers. Anything that is a guiding post requires that ability to know when to
intervene and when to sit back to let the wisdom of the process have its place.
And that’s what gets lost in the hospital, right? Because since we have all
these things to check, we do. So that’s one part.
Anne: 07:31 Agreed. I remember even
as a child being able to hold my youngest sister in my arms before she was
even, you know, washed off and like insisting on that. I remember insisting
that I wanted to. And mom was on the bean bag in our family room. It was an
extraordinarily different experience than she had had with her previous three
births with me and our other sister, she had had them in one hospital and had
just pretty bad experiences being forced to inducebeing kept away from her
child at length and more. I remember then with you, she tried a different
hospital hoping that would be better. Not at all. And finally went to the next
obvious choice, which was not even legal in the state at the time.
Thea: 08:39 I don’t know if it is
yet. It wasn’t even 20 years ago.
Anne: 08:42 Right, where we grew up.
Right. So I guess what I’d like to do, I think you had articulated this, maybe
you want to say it again about just inverting…
Thea: 08:55 Well I’ve had those
conversations with people too who’ve said how courageous to do it at home and
my feeling quite the same as you. That, “No.” And then I was thinking
that it’s really about taking that image, that picture of what birth is and
it’s become inverted. It’s slipped through the wormhole to the other side, you
know, the images of what’s courageous, and what’s comforting and safe, you
know? And I think that there’s a lot of movement of that, at least in the
communities that we live in, of people recognizing that birth needs to be re
looked at to be redone, to be safe. And to be non medicalized to give families
the best start. You know, I think one of the big parts of it being so
medicalized is that it seems to create distance when there should be connection
right off the bat, you know? And it’s hard enough. I mean, that’s the part that
boggles my mind. It’s hard enough, just the actual physical laboring of it. And
then really the weeks after of the care, I mean, it’s amazing what we do.
Anne: 10:24 Well, it’s, I mean, let’s
go further. It’s not just, yes, the actual physical laboring, but I’ve never
experienced anything like it. Right? And having done it we all, most women I
think would agree you get to a point and I guess that that’s around transition,
but you get to a point where you cannot imagine going further. It is
unbearable. Right? And it’s hard to describe. It’s not a pain like, like a
wound. It’s the most unpleasant discomfort I’ve ever had. That goes beyond
pain, but it’s not sharp pain.
Thea: 11:21 I would even call it more,
I mean, I know we all have our different colorings of it and I think that
that’s such an interesting idea we’ve talked about even in another
conversation––about what we identify as pain and how we articulate it and how
we hold it in our understanding. But it’s more like “unbelievable.”
It’s going to a space that is unbelievable. And there is required a complete
surrender into what is unbelievable.
Anne: 11:54 Yes, yes. And a courage,
I mean, and I, I remember…
Thea: 12:02 Your first birth? I
remember it, too.
Anne: 12:04 Well, the first birth you
remember because, and I’ll say to the viewer, this is after Thea’s third birth,
third home birth, and she has her youngest in a sling having been born seven
weeks before. And she’s there in my little apartment, you know, helping me
along. And me in my heady way and crazy trippy way that birth sends you into
not realizing that I was as close as I was, just somehow thinking that it was
just getting, I was just getting more, more pathetically weak and unable to, to
deal with it. And I remember you just marveling that I was still talking about
it instead of just going into myself. Right? And then the second time Thea got
there 15 minutes after the delivery of my daughter. And I remember at the point
where my midwife was saying she’s, because of course the midwives arethey’re
checking all the time. They’re monitoring the heart rate of the baby, yours,
everything. Right? And intimately, and frequently. They’re right there. And she
said, “Okay, you know, if they don’t come out,”––we weren’t sure, boy
or girl––”they don’t come out in the next one or doesn’t start coming out,
we’re going to have you change your position.” And in that moment, and she
told me why, because her heart rate was, not coming up as quickly as it should.
And I remember thinking, “Okay,” and all I could think of was that
scene from Braveheart where Mel Gibson’s character’s be being disemboweled and
he shouts “Freedom!” And I think to myself, because it’s based on a true
story, I thought to myself, “If somebody could do that and shout
‘Freedom!”, I can do this and I can get her out.” And I did. Right?
So it’s like we all go through all these different processes. (Laughter).
Thea: 14:25 (Laughter) Wow!
Anne: 14:25 But doing that, or as we
were talking about earlier knowing very deep down that something has to
be.You’re in touch with what’s going on there with your child. And I’ve heard
so many stories from so many women who have said, whether it’s the doctor or
the midwife or anybody saying no, you know, you’re not far, or you’ve still got
a while…And the woman is just like, “No, I know they need to come out,
and not only do they need to come out, I need to transfer because they need to
come out now.” And the mother gets in touch with an instinct in her that
she’s never had before. That that puts her authority over her child above all
else. And in home birth in, in my experience and mind, really allows that to
happen in a much more conducive way, I guess. Pardon me. Than the hospital,
Thea: 15:42 Yeah. A total different
framework. Can we pause for one quick second?
Anne: 15:50 Yeah. As I get a drink of
water so I don’t hack all over the place. Hold on. Yeah. Okay. So we just got
off on a tangent, but I want to point out a couple of things to folks who are
looking at this and are interested in the idea of home birth but are concerned
about the risks. So this came out this last year or so (NOTE: IT WAS ACTUALLY
MAY 2016) ––a study by researchers at Johns Hopkins medicine says medical
errors should rank as the third leading cause of death in the United States.
And that’s I have a feeling that’s probably even higher, you know, because
that’s really what’s, what’s attributed to medical errors. And our experience
you know, extensive experience in the hospitals taking care of our parents
suggests to me that there are a lot of things, a lot of dots that are not
connected where intervention causes more complications that lead to death as
Thea: 16:52 And unnecessary
interventions and even mis and ill communicated Interventions. So much of it I
think is like the whole system is so big that the communication channels are
not connected and cohesive and things get missed, or whatever.
Anne: 17:13 Absolutely. It’s become
quite dehumanized, you know, and you don’t want to really bring a child into
such an dehumanised system to give them a good start, you know? And it’s not to
say that there aren’t some hospitals with some really great teams and great
departments that really––and I know there’s a movement to revamp that too, and
to give women more options of even like water births in hospitals and try to
create an environment that’s a little closer to a birth center. So I know that
consciousness is there, but you could also just do it at home, you know? So
then here’s another I think this was like Harvard Medical Review. (NOTE: IT WAS
ACTUALLY HARVARD BUSINESS REVIEW.) I don’t have it printed out where it is, but
“Rising US maternal mortality rate demands action from employers,”
and it goes in to say “The US maternal mortality rate has more than
doubled from 10.3 per 100,000 live births in 1991 to 23.8 in 2014. Over 700
women a year die of complications related to pregnancy each year in the United
States. And two thirds of those deaths are preventable. 50,000 women suffer
from life threatening complications of pregnancy. A report from the
Commonwealth Fund released in December found American women have the greatest
risk of dying from pregnancy complications among 11 high income
countries.” Wow. And then another one I think this was CBS News. Yeah, and
I think this is, let’s see. This was a 2013 story, but “US has highest
first day infant mortality out of industrialized world, group reports. About
11,300 newborns die within 24 hours of their birth in the U S each year, 50%
more first day deaths than all other industrialized countries combined. I
Anne: 19:33 So, the other thing I
want to bring up, and I don’t have all the data in front of me, but if you
really, if you look into the history of midwifery and then the involvement
ofthe movement toward surgeons getting involved in birth. I mean, because since
time immemorial, really women have been…
Thea: 20:10 The carriers of birth.
Anne: 20:13 Yeah. The midwives have
always been women. Until really the last couple hundred years. I imagine, I
mean, it seemed like an easy gig. Right? And, you know, and they’re also,
there’s good intention behind it too, because there were complications and
there were complications for lots of reasons that don’t actually apply anymore.
Thea: 20:38 Sanitation, cleanliness,
Anne: 20:39 Absolutely. Not to mention––okay.
Well then, then let’s get into this. So it’s like a little known tidbit that
should be discussed a lot more in our history books when we’re looking at
childbirth infant mortality infectious disease and more. But there was an
epidemic of puerperal fever1700’s and on through the 1800s and the advent and
during the real explosion of the industrialized revolution where surgeons were
not washing their hands. And there was this, you know, it was like a
progressive idea that washing hands is helpful in the medical field. There
seemed to be a resistance to washing one’s hands. And so you would have the
doctors, the surgeons leaving the corpse and death and going straight over to
deliver babies. And that resulted in this huge epidemic of maternal mortality.
It was this epidemic of puerperal fever. And that really didn’t start changing
on an institutionalized level until the forties, the 1940s, where that became
implemented as a rule that you have to wash your hands before helping deliver a
baby. So it’s the implications of that are staggering. And it’s its own
conversation or book really where you have to consider how that impacted the
society, the societal fabric. You had hundreds of thousands of women dying in
childbirth. So you had this staggering number of orphans resulting from that
right around the time of the industrial revolution, which led to, you know,
families without mothers child labor…
Thea: 23:07 The misery of a time. The
children. Yeah. That’s amazing.
Anne: 23:11 Oh my God. When the women
aren’t around to manage things on a whole, widespread level. So you had that
and, and what was the other thing we were talking about? We’re just talking
about like even just the birth practices of you know, the earlier part of last
century, I mean, Twilight, chloroform, forceps, all those interventions…
Thea: 23:42 Vacuum.
Anne: 23:42 They look at that now and
they realize how many deaths and complications that caused. Right? So I think
that if anyone is remotely interested in the empowering and healthy experience
of delivering your child at home, I would recommend, you know, a cursory
examination of the real history of that. And why we have gotten so afraid of
childbirth’s dangers and what those dangers really are now and how those
factors can be controlled or what of those factors even apply anymore.
Thea: 24:31 Right. And, and what it
would mean, really in a vast way, if as large portions of our communities
started to really bring it back to the home space, what would that do to our
communities in a broad and far seeing line? What ways would that change our
initial bonding with our children and therefore our relationship and dynamics
of parenting? I mean the relationship aspect goes on and on and on and
trickles. If we can minimize those pivotal, intrinsic to who we become and what
we work with traumas, as we come into the world. Because we all have our
traumas to work through. And if in this basic, deep realm of entering the
earth, if there’s love and warmth and safety filling us and feeding us as the
parent and as the baby coming in, what would that do to our world? As opposed
to the fear and tension and separation we experience.
Anne: 25:45 Absolutely. And traumas.
I mean, just the interventions that are practiced as routine in the US birth
practicesis traumatic. On first day of life, second day of life, you know. Just
iimagine what it could be like for a human being to enter this realm and be
laying there in one’s mother’s arms, in the warm and dimly lit room, quiet,
surrounded only by loving family and friends.
Thea: 26:42 Reverent.
Anne: 26:42 Loving midwives. Because
by the way, for anyone also wondering, the midwife always brings an assist,
another midwife, they assist each other. There’s always two of them. What a
difference would that make to our world if that’s how we all came into the
world, right? So, so think about that. You know, we’re, we’re up on time. Maybe
we’ll talk more about this.
Thea: 27:10 Yeah, there are so many
angles and, and colorings of this dialogue that really play out into all of the
things we think about. Really.
Anne: 27:20 It reverberates, right?
So, hey, so if you want to give your child the right start? Let’s start at
birth. Let’s start at birth.
Thea: 27:33 Yeah, let’s start at
birth. Thanks. Great. Talk to you later.
Anne: 27:38 See you later. Okay. Let
me end this again.
We can find play––and joy––in work. And the chores we give our children can develop a capacity to approach work with the fullness of being.
Anne: 00:00 Okay. All right. Here we
are. Take 17.
Thea: 00:06 Hi, Anne!
Anne: 00:09 Hi, Thea. Okay. So if I
can just get my words together. So we’re going to talk today, a kind of
continuation on last week’s where we were talking about the importance of children’s
chores––and how necessary it is for children to participate in the family’s
survival, operation and more and how that very much aids in their development,
their sense of purpose self-esteem and wards off feelings of depression and
angst. So, so we decided, you know, it was not a really long conversation and
we thought we would continue on with maybe identifying some concrete examples
of the types of chores and tasks that we can assign to our children, but
Thea: 01:09 Sorry, I need to just
speak to my child…
Anne: 01:10 Okay. Let me, let me
pause it for one second.
Thea: 01:14 Okay. Sorry. All right.
Please don’t eat that, which is dinner right there…
Anne: 01:21 Okay. So we’re recording
again. So part of what we hit on was the fact that it seems, and from our
perspective perhaps as women, but it seems that the world that we live in, the
modern world here in the States––I live in the suburbs, you live in a small
city––does not provide as many natural opportunities and tasks for masculine
activities. In the same way it does female activities. And by that we’re
talking about, you know, the difference in––certainly between people and
different temperaments, but also between girls and boys. Girls, you know, the
type of household chores we have all the time. There’s never, never in short
supply––doing the dishes, sweeping the floor, vacuuming, tidying, making things
pretty. Even some of the yard work seems to resonate perhaps, maybe more with
my daughter than it does my son. And when I was stretching to figure out, well,
what is it that, that my son really resonates with? It’s chopping wood. It’s,
it’s getting the firewood to build, building a fire. Though my daughter is
pretty pro at that too. It’s, it’s digging. I remember, you know, how he really
got into helping my husband taking apart the deck to then repurpose the wood.
And fixing things. And it then led me to thinking about, well this house that
we built in our backyard, I wrote about this in an article I just wrote about
for his third grade year, Waldorf curriculum is building your own shelter. And
we built a six by six by six by six foot A-frame wooden house in our backyard.
Anne: 03:37 Something I never
imagined I had the capacity to do, and we did it mainly without power tools except
when we really needed my husband’s help here and there. Right? And that was
extraordinary. And so one of the things I wanted to, to share was this book, a
couple of these books that the Christopherus Curriculum––Donna Simmons writes,
does this extraordinary curriculum, Waldorf curriculum that’s designed for
homeschoolers, multi-age homeschoolers. And she had recommended Lester Walker’s
Housebuilding for Children, written
in like 1977 or something. And Lester Walker’s Carpentry for Children, you know, it was around the same era. And
we followed these his plans in here. And I mean, this is, you know, that’s the
house we basically, we built and it just, it goes through showing, you know,
building the walls putting the roof in.
Anne: 04:47 And there’s so much,
obviously that’s incorporated into that, you know, just from a homeschooler’s
perspective––algebra, geometry and more. Right? But anyways, so we had wanted
to come up with a prescription for the boys more specifically because it didn’t
seem as apparent in this, in this urbanized world that we’re living in. And I
thought back to another project that my son had done with my husband, which was
a bookshelf. I needed a bookshelf, and I needed one fast. And I’m particular
about what will fit in the house. Not that my taste is so high end, but it’s
just, you know, I just needed a, a particular kind of height and a compactness
for the space. And they took these two old dressers, wooden dressers, and
repurposed them and reconfigured them and then built some shelves into it and
built a bookshelf. And how wonderful that is. I mean, I walk by it every day,
several times a day. My son sees this useful manifestation of his creative
Thea: 06:07 Will forces.
Anne: 06:10 Yeah. And that I needed,
that he provided. And so that was the suggestion I wanted to give anyone
listening and who’s been thinking about this themselves. You know, no matter
how small an apartment one has, how no or little yard or back deck, patio or
whatever someone has, you can build a bookshelf. You can build a small
bookshelf in that. You can build a small table, you can build a spice rack, you
can build a cabinet and that is so terribly satisfying, and there’s so much
learning going on in so many levels when that’s happening. But I think that
that, that kind of task is something that is important to give to your son. Or
daughter. I mean, I am so pleased that I, know the basics of building a house
now from building this house. I feel so competent. I do as a almost 49 year old
having learned this just a couple of years ago. And this is following on our
father who was not so inclined that way. And you know, I mean his version of a
shed, I mean, we loved him so dearly and he was so great at so many things, but
Thea: 07:41 But he did make the
Anne: 07:44 Well, he made the effort,
which may not have been the greatest example because his version of the shed, I
don’t know if you remember, but was like basically buying a few pieces of
plywood and leaning it kind of up against the back wall of the garage, nailing
it together and slapping some paint on it. It was a shelter, but I think that
kind of thing was left with me and I probably didn’t feel all that competent in
my abilities to do something as well as we did these couple years ago with just
some good plans. Right? So I highly recommend Lester Walker’s books. Again, Carpentry
for Children, Housebuilding for Children,
they’re used books. I can’t find books like this anymore. This, this was
written back in the 70s when kids had more time. And time to fill up with
purposeful activities like this.
Thea: 08:54 With their own problem
solving and skill building, yeah. So with those ideas, I think we can also just
weave into that cause I think there’s a lot of room for those sort of projects
if we are willing to take the time to fill out the little spaces in our life
where it might be a different habit than what would be convenient to get this
thing that you need for something, but to them slow down and allow an
opportunity for your child or children to make that which you need out of maybe
something you already have around or you know, repurposed things or getting the
materials. So it’s just a slower pace to give those opportunities to our
children, I think. Is another window to look through regarding that topic.
Anne: 09:49 Yeah. I absolutely agree,
which makes me of course, think about even the slower pace of growing our own
food. Right? Whether you’re doing it in a window box garden or a small garden
bed or a community garden or your own backyard, that has been infinitely rewarding
for me in understanding many layers I think of just even this existence and
making connections. I mean, it strikes me that now that we don’t have a lot of
people growing their own food and I know there’s a movement back towards that,
but we lose touch with just the process and just the process of life and the
miracle of life. Just the fact of taking the seed and planting it in the ground
and watering it and with the sun and the nutrients in the soil.
Thea: 10:59 And caring for it,
nurturing it too, or allowing it to have its time to do its own. I mean all the
analogies for life are in…Isn’t that Thoreau? The seed? What is the quote? I
can’t think of…whatever. Life, eternity in a… I’m mixing things up.
Anne: 11:26 But yes, that is. I mean,
the miracle of life. I mean, it’s occurred to me, it’s not just that, but
health and wellness. You know, a farmer understands that the soil is critical
to the health of the plant and that without amending the soil and nourishing
the soil over and over again, there’s nothing for that plant. No matter what
you do to it, it’s not going to thrive. And so, you know, so gardening alone,
yes, brings so many understandings essential understandings back to us, right?
A spice garden even, right? Just a tiny little one. Yeah. Or like you said, or
the process of building the small table, a small bookshelf. To know what goes
into that Is, you know, all, all that is of value in that is hard to even put
in a language. And you know, when we’re so used to a world where you can get
online and order it with a button now and it’s delivered to your door in two
Thea: 12:43 Well there’s something
too, just that picture of taking, you know, what’s in your hand and scanning
over it. Like you run by it and you don’t really notice it. And then when we
slow down a little bit and we stand in that space of––what’s in your hand and
you just start to see all that it is, where did the wood that you’re using
grow, what was the, you know, what was the journey of that which you’re holding
to become that which you’re holding? And that’s, you know, that’s not so much
the pace of the world around us. So it’s the real choice to come into that, to
slow down, to have appreciation for that, the becoming of each thing that has
become, or is becoming.
Anne: 13:35 Absolutely. if we don’t
stay in touch with that, we lose touch with everything. I mean, as you’re, as
you’re talking, I kind of feel like maybe all this seems like a given
intellectually, but I can attest to having been transformed by putting it into
practice. You know, I grew up very heady and abstract, you know, and unlike
you, I didn’t, I never knitted or cared at all to do macrame or handwork or
crochet, or anything like that.
Thea: 14:13 I remember. I know. I’ve
watched you go through all of these things.
New Speaker: 14:19 And I was forced to by my
own choice to homeschool my children using a Waldorf curriculum, which appealed
to me for a variety of reasons that resonated very deeply in me, but you know,
all of that I kind of dreaded really. And as I have come to each one of those
subjects or new learnings, it’s been remarkable how, I mean, I say this, I
can’t say it enough. It’s like exponentially transformed me. It has––my spirit,
my being, my senses, my awarenesses, my connections have woken up like
exponentially, right? Just in knitting, learning to knit. And understanding
what goes into then everything that I have that’s knit/knitted. Understanding,
as basic as this sounds, but I mean, making yarn, you know, learning to make
yarn, the wool that comes from the sheep and beyond, beyond, beyond. Right? But
we’re such a society and culture here of immediate ready-made consumption that,
you know, the true prescription, I think for reconnection fulfillment, reward
that is all here in front of us to appreciate is to get back down to those
basics. And not just for a weekend camping, but to start to incorporate that
into our lives and recognize how critical that is in order to keep us whole.
Thea: 16:21 And tethered to that
force of creation, really. To not be adrift and lost in the darkness.
Anne: 16:31 Yes, yes. Especially for
those times of challenge and struggle. Yeah, that aids me, that has aided me in
how I have gotten through challenging times in my life, having gone back to
those basics and exercised so much more of me, myself. It’s all very hard to
quantify and talk about. It’s not tangible. Right?
Thea: 17:00 I don’t know. I mean, I
wonder about the tangibility, but I think it’s also, there’s something in there
that is the reminder that we are creators ourselves and so that is remembered
and recalled and exercised––it is then recognized through all of the weavings
of what’s around us.
Anne: 17:25 When it’s exercised on a
daily basis. Right? And so, so that brings us back to this with the children’s
chores and children’s work and children’s tasks. Our own chores and tasks, our
own, as you brought up in the last one, cooking our own food and not going and
buying it made or made and ready to heat up. There is so much that we have lost
in embracing that sort of convenience.
Thea: 18:00 Yeah. I mean it goes into
every facet, really, of what’s necessary for us to live. You know, we think about
the way we’ve––I mean this could be a quite the discussion just going from
being such community people, you know, where you washed the clothes at the
creek or where you, you know, harvest the food or the water, all of these
things that our culture is so removed from. And I think what part of that has
done––and we were touching upon this for a moment before we started this
conversation––those things that are, and there is, there can be drudgery in
those monotonous necessities. We know this. And there can also be a lot of joy
and camaraderie and space to daydream, space to create ideas. And I think that
in that there’s somewhere that the joy of work and that work is play in a
certain way that those are two sides of the same coin I think essentially. But
we have pretty successfully in our culture seemed to separate them in so many
views when I look. That work is something separate than play, and work is to be
something that we minimize and want less of so that we can have our relaxation
or recreation. But really, if we have the time to come into our work in such a
way with our fullness of being, there’s joy there. And within that comes that
element of play, which is what allows us to be human, really, and to relate to
others. I mean, you know, I work, I work five days a week outside of my home
and so I, every week I sort of think, gosh, there would be a better rhythm if I
didn’t have to go out to work five days a week, but did four, so that when I’m
doing my home work, my housework, I have the space and time to fill that
capacity with more joy. To do these tasks with more joy because there’s a
little more time to fill them out.
Anne: 20:40 There’s more room, right?
Thea: 20:41 More room, because you
know everything is about balance. I love my work that I go to, but I need to
balance that with the work that’s essential for just maintenance of life. And
it’s always trying to find how to live into the, the work of life with joy, you
know? And so that’s what we want to be able to give our children experiences
of. That work can be joyful, playful, all of those things. We want them to
exercise it and create avenues for those experiences to be there for them to
step into those capacities as they come into different challenges and
workspaces of life.
Anne: 21:24 Yes. And to have that
experience that even in a a task that might seem even drudgery there is in that
there is discovery to be had. So to have the experience of discovery, which
becomes joyful and leads to the next. And so it keeps us always sparked. It can
help keep us sparked, inspired and interested in just everyday living, if we’re
allowed to see it through that way. Right? And merge, as you’re saying––and I’d
like to discuss, maybe examine this more in the next one, but––work and play as
you said, it’s kind of two sides to the same coin. Rather than being so
separate, where one is resisted and the other so indulged in.
Thea: 22:19 And then the other thing
I had the thought to share, you know, especially for our children and these
ideas, if people are working to exercise to find new spaces to give their
children these experiences or spaces for these experiences or activities.
They’re not always going to be like, “Sweet, thanks!” You know,
that’s our job just to hold the line and continue to invite someone to pick up
this new way of being. This new way to find meaning and purpose in what is
needed in a house.
Anne: 23:08 Yeah. And what I will
say, and I, I don’t know how much time, I think we’re pretty far over. I didn’t
watch when we started. But a key I think to it is doing it a little bit
alongside at first. That really gets a momentum going and then you can kind of
leave them to go at it once they’re engaged and involved, so.
Thea: 23:30 So there’s more to
discuss here. I mean, it’s a pretty broad and deep idea, I think, that
continues to deepen the further we follow it and its ramifications. What we see
in the world and what we’re looking to see developed more of. So thank you,
Anne: 23:55 Thank you. All right,
well ’til next time. Hang on a second.
When children are responsible for essential family chores and necessary home and yard maintenance, they maintain a critical focus on their contribution and significance to the whole––and a general sense of purpose which is a necessary antidote to feelings of angst and depression.
Anne: 00:01 Hello, Thea.
Thea: 00:04 Hello, Anne.
Anne: 00:06 So today, let’s talk about being purposeful. It follows a little bit on our last conversation about even what makes us feel attractive or what makes us attracted to someone else. And purposefulness was a large part of that. And it also relates to a lot of other things we’ve been observing through our work and experience in life, parenting. We’ve been observing an alarming rate of depression and anxiety, lack of focus in children, in extraordinarily young children who you wouldn’t be expecting that of quite yet––in those typical like angsty teenage years. When children much younger than that are demonstrating symptoms and signs of depression, we need to explore that and address that in a way that we haven’t been doing obviously very successfully in this culture. Right? And you identified the lack, it seems, at least in the communities that we are surrounded by. Granted it’s coastal California. There’s a privilege of wealth in the areas that we live in. So I think that clouds or colors the landscape. But we’re noticing that children are not given, they’re not used to a lot of the similar day to day chores, meaningful, purposeful, necessary tasks that we grew up with. Right?
Thea: 02:10 Right. And actually, and
this might be a quick segue, but it’s something else that just popped into my
head a little bit. Because as you were talking about that I was picturing our
childhood, and while we had work, household work, I feel like, so a lot of our
work actually was taken into sport quite young and a lot of our time was put
there. And so that’s another coloring of this conversation, I think of the, the
hijacking of meaningful work. Now that’s not me saying sport is bad, but
there’s a lack of balance. And that ties into earlier conversations we’ve had where
we talked about the difference of sport and play a little bit. And then when
that play is hijacked right into sport, some other development doesn’t occur.
And then the sport takes on a deeper meaning then truly it should have. And
sense of self worth––as you were speaking about those stages of depression that
come earlier and earlier and then when there’s a little bit more of that nuance
of the angsty years where young people are learning how to deal with all of
these senses of being, these powers and forces of becoming a young adult, when
those don’t have a channel to be directed toward, they become self destructive
and socially destructive forces, you know, in their circles of friends. And so
that ties into, when there’s not the sense of meaningful capable purpose and
work and the capacity to meet those things, we get depressed. People get
depressed, and they can become ugly and lash out at others when they’re feeling
small themselves. Right?
Anne: 04:11 Yeah. You’re sparking
some thoughts in me, ’cause we hadn’t even talked about this in tying in the
sports, but it hadn’t even occurred to me. Yes. You know, I’m always saying,
“Oh, back in our day, back in our day when I had to wash the dishes every
day and clean up or shovel the snow or mow the lawn” or all of those
things that I don’t see a lot of kids doing these days––we also though, what I
should say for anyone viewing is that, we were a big tennis family, so we all
played tennis. It was a bit fanatical. We attribute our parents’ divorce to
tennis. And it became our job. And I, and I’m now kind of remembering, I’m
thinking back to the fact that, so our father, a second generation
immigrant––athletics and sports was very important to them. I think because of
the discipline that it practiced, and obviously, there’s a joy and a pleasure
in aspiring and honing that excellence that was manifest––like our uncle who
was drafted by the Bulls. Right? But they had a balance back then. They
certainly didn’t live in this age of technology and hyper developed world and
structure, which scheduled kids almost every minute of their day. So that, that
sport and that discipline and that activity, that was a respite from some of
the chores and hardships, necessary hardships of everyday life. Right? And so
then they––our baby boomer parents––brought that to our generation.
“Sports! It’s toward scholarships. It develops, you know, rounds you out,
keeps you fit. Good values, psychological discipline and all.” Which I
admit it gave me, I think it helped me with. And opened up opportunities for
me. But that was even too emphasized probably back then, you know, amidst also
all of the dance classes and music lessons and voice lessons and, tutoring and
school and….And, and, and, and.
Anne: 07:10 And I remember now that I
think about it feeling––I mean it kind of cultivates a bit of a narcissism too.
It’s just, sure, Oh, you know, yes, lifting our children up is something we
want to do but not in such an extreme way which puts all the focus of the
family on them and how well they do in their match. Pulling me out of school
for tennis lessons. Or I remember I am sure you remember well, yeah, I can say
this now, I remember getting into a car accident and I won’t give all the
details, but it was a really not a great situation for many reasons, but it was
right in the middle of an important tournament, which I was doing well in and I
didn’t really have any concern that there would be a problem about it because
that was paramount. I was doing well in the tennis tournament and all that
other stuff got it washed away. So I really just digressed there, but it does
make me realize that it’s not just our generation, it’s, it’s what’s built on
the other generation from what they took from their generation. And it’s gotten
Thea: 08:40 Completely. And it seems
that, I mean, and maybe it’s just in the circles I’m living in, that there is,
a slow, steady waking up to the lack of balance in that scenario. That this
idea, “That’s how my kid’s going to go to college,” is, you know, maybe
that works for some people that they start this sport, they pursue it, they get
a scholarship. Maybe those children actually continue playing or participating
in whatever that sport is. More often than not, those children are burnt out by
age 14. Right when it would be a good time for them to be picking up that
sport, because they started so young. And then they quit, and that’s the moment
they need that channel and that focus to hone. But people are realizing it’s
not so successful. I mean college, that’s a whole other conversation about the
distortion of all of that and…
Anne: 09:44 Of the importance, the
importance of college now, or the relevance of college in this rapidly changing
world, given how much it costs, it’s no longer the answer, right? To the
predictable paths of adulthood and profession.
Thea: 10:03 Right. I mean because
young people come into the world with $50,000 of debt. Or more.
Anne: 10:08 50? 200! Yeah, exactly.
So yes, I agree. And you in your Waldorf circle are more in touch with a lot of
folks that are aware of that. And, so shifting course, reversing course,
embracing a new course that hopefully rounds that impulse in our world out. And
me having come to Waldorf as well, as a homeschooler, differently I recognize
that too, recognize that more given my own experience. I mean, I was adamant
about not letting my kid join sports teams or get involved in any outside,
those types of extracurricular classes, whatever––structured, formalized
organized sports, dance, all of that––too early because we did it so young that
I burnt out by the time I really could have used it much more significantly at
the time in my life, you know? So, yeah. You know, I mean it’s not just Waldorf
education, it’s, it’s all of the alternative pedagogies. It’s also the increasing
understanding and study into the importance of play in education. And how far
we’ve gone away from that and how we’re trying to move back there slowly,
Thea: 11:55 Well, how much is really
happening when we play as children and, and how much is stolen from the
development of the human being when those opportunities are lost, or robbed
essentially of that time.
Anne: 12:11 Yeah, short shortchanged,
Thea: 12:12 So then, I don’t know if
this is too much, but then ’cause what had inspired this conversation was
really––so play is purposeful work at certain stages of the development of the
child and the human being, really. And then and then we’re talking about what
other purposeful work is there. And we do recognize we’re in one little bubble
of a view into the world in coastal California. But you know, where we grew up,
we did, we have to shovel the walk or shovel the driveway or whatever. You
know, picking up sticks, I remember, just before mowing the lawn or whatever,
all these things, which mowing the lawn, I didn’t go there, but raking leaves
also. But––So what do these young people have today? And I was sharing that and
it’s not quite formed yet still, so maybe something will get clearer––I feel
like as a female, and maybe it’s simply because I am one––that there are still
more tasks, household tasks that bring me a sense of real satisfaction. Because
I, I enjoy the homemaking. I don’t see my sons enjoy homemaking quite as much
as I do or even did as a young person.
Anne: 13:35 Yeah, I have a girl and a
boy. And the difference is so marked in terms of how they come to it or resist
it. You know, so yes, go ahead.
Thea: 13:51 So, so just thinking––and
I know the way my life is, I don’t have opportunities for my kids. I’m not
living on a farm, so I don’t have this like more physical work accessible to
them. So it’s a real task as a parent in a place where I live to find this. And
that’s what sport kind of gives an echo of, right? Of meaningful work in our
culture. But outside of that, what work do they get to do that we can’t live
without? What do they get to participate in that helps the family, that is
essential, maybe, hopefully, kind of boring so that they have the time and
space to develop a rich interior world.
Anne: 14:36 Or not boring, but monotonous,
perhaps. And you just made me realize city living is emasculating.
Thea: 14:54 Totally! So that’s what
we’re talking about today. Get to the country.
Anne: 15:00 But there’s quite a push
toward the city living and we could go down a lot of rabbit holes there. So
what do we do? What’s, what is the prescription? Okay. I mean, let’s first
identify the fact that we had also talked about this a little bit too, you
know, as a homeschooler and someone actively involved in my homeschool group I
recognize that boys earlier on are the ones who come to us and then the girls a
bit later, because school is not really suited or designed for a boy.
Thea: 15:44 The energy that is moving
and coursing through the boy. And sometimes the girls. I was kind of one of
those girls in a way too. Like needed to move a lot.
Anne: 15:54 Yeah. You, you are.
Right. Movement teacher and spacial dynamics person that you are––yoga and
dance and…so yes, so school with its abstract, very sitting still,
obedient––however way you cut it there’s an element of people pleasing
obedience because of that framework of school, no matter how great the school
is. It’s not that suited for boys. And increasingly with the, what? 20 minutes
of recess and all of that, it’s so much less. So we need to recognize that. And
in small steps individually, now, what we need to recognize is that for a boy
to become a man, he needs to be able to do traditionally male things. And I
don’t care who I offend saying that! I mean, there is a relevance to the
traditional roles, or the traditional paths.
Thea: 17:05 I mean, I think you could
easily say the more masculine activities without it being offensive, because I
know for me––and I get to watch at school, so at recess, which we have more
than 20 minutes, all in all, we have like an hour, a day of recess. But that’s
not the only movement our kids get. But I see, so let’s take third grade,
fourth grade, second grade, the boys, they’re building, they’re finding wood
and they’re building shelters. That’s their recess. Most often. The girls are
now residing in the shelter, and they’re organizing it and they’re bringing
little plants and making it lovely and sweet. And then the boys want to come in
the house and the girls are like, “No, you mess it up.” And they’re
like, “You can be the dog sleeping by the fire.” This is something
that really happened and it’s, and it’s so perfect. “You Have too much
energy. Unless you’re a resting, boy, you’re not in my house right now.”
Anne: 18:17 Right! And she’s calling
the shots. I mean, it’s certainly no diminishment of the female role in her
realm, in our realm, right?
Thea: 18:25 And there is a really natural acknowledgement. I mean, and there are some girls that are doing the building, not to say there aren’t, and I’m trying to think of any boys in the house. I can’t think of any right now, you know, currently. But, and I remember being that as, as a kid, even when we played in our, on our street, which wasn’t quite a neighborhood, but it was just a little more country and one of our sisters was much more into, “I’ll build this.” And I was definitely more in, “And I’ll make it pretty!” You know? “I’ll do that part.” So different needs in there to be satisfied.
Anne: 19:10 Yeah. While I managed it.
Thea: 19:14 Precisely!
Anne: 19:18 Or not. So, okay, so
we’re at 20 minutes. We’ve identified some stuff. Let’s, let’s, let’s come up
with a bit of a prescription for a couple of minutes.
Thea: 19:30 I don’t know if this is a
prescription, so my apologies again if it’s not that. But I think one of the
other threads I just don’t want to forget was really the question of how is
time spent? That portion of what makes things purposeful in our life. That is
so out of balance. You know, our lives are out of balance and so what––it is!
It’s prescription! Look at that. Boom! So it comes in as to these little
moments that we get to choose. Do we make this work to survive meaningful? And
do we get to put some of our creative forces towards that meaningful work? And
that’s simply…food preparation. Do we buy prepackaged things or do we cook?
Do we take the time to cook real food? Do we, you know self care products? Do
we buy our oils for our face or our creams, or do we make them? And do our
children get to be a part of those things––that we then take the time to make
Anne: 20:35 Okay. Absolutely. But
what I’ll say is that doesn’t address the boys as much as I think we’d like to.
So how about this? I was telling you that we––my husband mainly––chopped a huge
tree down in our backyard. Right? And interestingly different people that we
were talking about doing this before–– he was trying to get some advice or just
discussing––couldn’t quite conceive that he wouldn’t hire that work out. Right?
And he ended up doing it and he, it was a challenge. Because it’s a very big
tree and it wasn’t too far from our house. And you know, it was like climbing,
cutting a few branches here and there so he could still have a ladder to climb
on, with the chainsaw, but didn’t want to use the chainsaw really that high up
in case it slips. So using, you know, a manual saw. And then it ended with the
family with the rope all pulling it down after he had gotten it short enough,
it wasn’t going to ruin our house. “Timber!” Right? And then the kids
helping chop, stack wood. Right? My daughter my son definitely, he thrived in
that. Right? My daughter helped as well. But you know, we have different
interests, you know, that that was I think more satisfying perhaps to, to my
son. So what about just making conscious choices as, as ludicrously privileged
as this sounds? So I, it’s grossing me out to even say this, but you know,
things that we would normally hire someone else to do for us that we’ve never
done before that do fall under that realm of like building and physical
Thea: 22:33 And fixing and taking
apart and putting back together.
Anne: 22:36 Fixing the toilet fixing
the faucet. Painting the front door. The fence. Tom Sawyer. Huck Finn. What
about making small conscious choices, even though it’s not as efficient,
perhaps, maybe you can justify the money because of the time it’s going to
save, you don’t have to manage your kid, all of that. Let’s start giving our
kids more of those meaningful tasks to do. And see what happens and what comes
from that. Yes?
Thea: 23:15 That’s an idea. I mean,
because we want to be able to help our children and help ourselves become more
capable to meet what comes, whatever that is. So we need the opportunities to,
to fail, you know, to, to practice the things that we’re doing. And build the
Anne: 23:35 We also need to
recognize, I mean, I, I’ve heard this argument before that, “Well, you
know, the world is turning, you know, basically everyone’s becoming
coders,” right? I mean, “the world’s all computerized, technology
robotics. Why fight it you know, if you’re going to succeed, I mean, put your
energies there.” Well, I don’t think that that is a healthy approach to
helping children develop. I don’t think that we should reject that awareness of
where the world is and exposure to that at the appropriate times and
cultivating those skills. But if we just move in that direction only and put
all of our efforts in that abstract video game, whatever, learning we are
certainly very weakened. Another aspect of us is weakened. And if that whole
framework isn’t there suddenly or wherever you go in the world or whatever, you
know, your competence is greatly compromised. So let’s work toward, no matter
where we think the world is going, still exercising all aspects of our human
beingness––physical and mental, emotional and spiritual. So you know that,
that’s the general prescription. Let’s determine to make this, continue this,
the next one. Part two of it.
Thea: 25:14 Yeah. There’s more
avenues to go down. We’re just getting it started. So thanks for touching in.
It’s just something that’s been on my mind, definitely lately. And looking
around. So thanks.
Anne: 25:26 Yep. You too.
Thea: 25:28 Have a good one.
Anne: 25:29 You too. Hold on and let
me figure out how to press these buttons. Let’s see. Stop.
I help run our county’s homeschool group, and I field new member requests. Parents come to us for myriad reasons. They’ve always been curious about homeschooling, but don’t feel confident enough in their teaching abilities to educate their children. Their son or daughter is being bullied at school. Their child is bored, doesn’t seem to fit, isn’t succeeding in the conventional school system. They notice a marked difference between their child’s confidence and happiness during the summer and the school year––some children plead with their parents to let them stay home from day to day. Children who have heard of homeschooling beg their parents to let them try it.
I often speak with these parents on the phone or invite them to attend new member park days where they have a chance to speak with seasoned homeschooling parents. We explain all the avenues and how much easier it is to do than they’ve imagined. As Rahima Baldwin Dancy puts it in the title of her book–– You Are Your Child’s First Teacher. And therefore, you are certainly equipped to teach your child.
The US didn’t even make it into the top 20 countries in math, reading and science PISA rankings, and I live in California, which ranks 37th in primary education scores among the states. So, one of the first things I point out to parents intimidated by the seemingly daunting responsibility of teaching their children: You really can’t do much worse than the education system is already doing, so take the pressure off yourself to begin with. Second, you’ll almost certainly do a far better job of helping your children hold onto their curiosity, develop their critical thinking skills, get more sleep, feel less stressed and actually enjoy learning. Third, in this Age of Information, every type of curriculum imaginable is available to assist our efforts. You do not have to hold a degree in mathematics in order to teach your children about long division, algebra, geometry and the like. Just as teachers in the conventional school system are provided with teaching guides and answer keys, so will you be. In addition, “out-of-school” learning programs and enrichment classes are increasingly available to homeschoolers who want to supplement their own teaching. And finally, human beings are natural learners, provided we don’t mess that extraordinary capacity up!
As teacher, author and speaker John Taylor Gatto articulated in his New York Teacher of the Year Award acceptance speech, ”How will they learn to read?’ you say, and my answer is ‘Remember the lessons of Massachusetts.’ When children are given whole lives instead of age-graded ones in cellblocks––they learn to read, write, and do arithmetic with ease if those things make sense in the kind of life that unfolds around them.”
I highly recommend any of John Taylor Gatto’s books or videos in which he explains the contradictions between learning and our educational system, and where he lays out the history of compulsory schooling here in the US––which is based on the Prussian model of education in which the goal was obedience and compliance––and what he identified as the “6 Secret Lessons Taught in School“:
Confusion and Fragmentation
Emotional and Intellectual Dependency
Surveillance and Denial of Privacy
Even in well intended, alternative, progressive schools, our primary educational system cannot provide children as rich a learning environment as they can find outside it. Homeschooled children are regularly involved in the world among folks of different ages and generations, encountering the infinite puzzles, problems and opportunities they find in day-to-day living––with the freedom to pursue and build upon their individual interests and passions. The classroom is a contrivance––an artificial, abstract environment which does not resemble the actual world we live in, and which demands children learn designated material at a designated time in a designated time frame in a designated manner.
A theme throughout Gatto’s books and lectures is that children learn easily when they are engaged and interested––and that they/we can learn in weeks what schools take months or years to teach. Timing also plays a huge role in how well children learn. I use a Waldorf curriculum to homeschool my children, and Waldorf education recognizes that sooner is not always better. This excellent article “First Grade Readiness” by Waldorf teacher and curriculum author Donna Simmons demonstrates this point. Her Christopherus Homeschool curriculum has been a joy to use, and her website has been a wealth of resource for us.
I was raised by liberal academics. My mother had a Masters in Education, and my father’s PhD was in the Philosophy of Education. They were both very heady individuals, and my feminist mother deliberately did not teach my sisters and me how to sew, knit, cook––or any of those traditional female skills, as I suppose she and my father felt they were liberating us from what they perceived could be a prison. If we didn’t even know how to do it, there’s no way we’d be “relegated” to housewives. And they sent each of us to a Montessori school until age 11, a pedagogy with a heavy emphasis on math, science and language, and very little on art, handwork or music.
Art, music, handwork, nature, baking, dance, story telling and more are incorporated very holistically into Waldorf education, so you can imagine what a learning curve it was for me to adopt such a curriculum to homeschool my children. And what a joy it has been! What a journey of personal development it has been! And how fun it has been to learn alongside my children in so many ways! When I am learning something, I am curious about it, excited about it, and that translates to the excitement I have in introducing these concepts to my children as well.
This week, we’ve been reading the epic tale The Mahabharata for my son’s 5th grade Ancient India block, and last year, I re-familiarized myself with pre-algebra to keep up with his math progress. Whether it’s history, mathematical concepts, music, literature or anything else, I am confident that I can learn as well as my kids can, and that while I add another skill set or subject to my repertoire, I can help my kids learn it, too. It enriches our lives, and it makes the whole experience of education and learning fun when the whole family is involved. It also keeps us all very connected to each other and with what’s going on in each other’s lives.
Some folks are intimidated by the time and energy commitment of homeschooling. As my good friend and prominent homeschool advocate Julie Schiffman points out, “When people say to me that they could never homeschool because it’s ‘too much work,’ I respond with, ‘Do you realize how much work it takes to have a kid in school?'” Between shuttling one’s kids to and from school, packing lunches, managing homework, extra-curricular involvement and increasing requirements for parent volunteerism at the schools, homeschooling feels like less of a time commitment than what most schools require from the family.
And then there’s the oft repeated concern and question, “What about socialization?” Once you start homeschooling, you begin to realize what a non-concern that is. Homeschooled kids are out in the world all the time––interacting with people of all ages, professions and ethnicities. My kids have friends from age 8 to 80, and they regularly run into them at the market, the library and other places in town, often introducing me to folks they know through the open mic or chess club they attend regularly with my husband. My 8 year old daughter has tea dates with some teenage girls she’s friends with. When the kids get together with similarly aged homeschool friends (which is usually several times a week), they spend hours playing and talking, getting deeply immersed and involved in whatever it is they’re doing. My homeschool parent friends and I regularly discuss having to consciously make a point of saying “no” to some of the social events and get togethers in order to have enough time at home for homeschooling and day-to-day tasks. They are definitely not wanting for socialization.
And finally, what about the data on homeschooling outcomes? Homeschooling as an increasingly popular education option has been in place in the US and Canada for long enough to substantially measure the outcomes and get a fairly comprehensive picture of how homeschooled children have fared into adulthood. Homeschooled children score above average on achievement tests, SATs and ACTs and are increasingly being recruited by colleges.
I’m the oldest of four girls, and after my youngest sister was born, my parents decided to save some money for the year my mother took off from work to stay home with her, pull us out of the private Montessori school we were attending, and homeschool us for a year. There had also been some staffing issues at the school––the teacher in the 9-12 age class that I was in had been replaced by a non-Montessori trained teacher at the time, and my education seemed to be suffering as a result. I had been having difficulties grasping concepts like long division and other subjects that were being introduced to me that year.
So, my parents bought a TRS-80 computer, some other materials and workbooks, and they set up our family room to be the “school room.” My mom was understandably pretty consumed with the new baby, and we spent a lot of that year just playing. I remember kind of secretly feeling guilty that we were “getting away with it,” because we spent so little time on “school work” and so much time playing out in the backyard, the creek, creating Fisher Price villages out on the back porch, designing basic programs on our new computer. My mom made sure we did some school work every day, but it seemed trivial in comparison to what felt like a year-long summer.
And then something funny happened. When my mom went back to work the following year, and we re-enrolled in school, I was no longer struggling at school. I had easily caught up on all the things I had been “behind” in––long division was suddenly a cinch. And I hadn’t even noticed that I had been learning it so easily and efficiently. Ever since, I have always known that if I had children, my first choice would be to homeschool them if at all possible.
Neither of my kids have attended regular school. I have an 11 year old son and an 8 year old daughter who are both curious, avid learners who excel academically, are engaged in their community, and pursue any number of myriad interests and passions including chess, dance, basketball, songwriting, beatboxing, poetry, reading, writing, gymnastics, playing and talking on the phone with their friends. They are generally kind and earnest in their interactions with others, and adults in their lives often remark to my husband and me how “well-behaved” they are. Of course, they don’t see them at home:) But this is a common theme among homeschoolers. Our theory is that because they aren’t cooped up in a classroom all day, they don’t feel the same need to let off steam and “goof off” as much while out at the store, at sport practice, at dance class.
Homeschooled children have more time––to think, to wonder, to sit, to be, to sleep, to breathe. We live in a hectic world, and children are very scheduled. As my kids have gotten older and gotten more involved in extra-curricular classes, teams and hobbies, it strikes me that the only way it’s been manageable is because they have so much breathing room during the day. And the family still has plenty of time together to share meals, have conversations, get chores done, and more. We’ve still managed to maintain what feels like a civilized pace and schedule, even with increasing outside activity involvement.
I enjoy spending time with my kids, learning with them, learning from them, watching them unfold. Parenting is flying by, and in a few years, I’m sure I’ll see less and less of them, as they become more independent, autonomous and more interested in their friends, dating, and outside pursuits. And then eventually, God willing, they’ll leave home to start their own separate journeys. With the state of things as it is in the conventional school system, and with homeschooling’s proven success––why wouldn’t we homeschool?
What makes us attractive––to ourselves and to others? And what happens when we cover up all the mirrors in our house for a week? (But leave one uncovered for the cat, because that’s just too fun to watch:))
Anne: 00:01 Hi, Thea.
Thea: 00:02 Hi Anne.
Anne: 00:05 So this evening, we are
going to follow on last weeks. We were talking about image versus essence. We
were talking about this trend toward cosmetic enhancement and what seems to be
an overemphasis and an inordinate value placed on appearance of youth
specifically versus, you know, our natural physical aging and all the good
stuff that comes with that, which is wisdom, experience, I think authority.
Thea: 00:44 And ease. I would throw
ease in there.
Anne: 00:47 And ease. And confidence.
Definitely ease in our being. We’ve been here for more times around the sun and
the more we’ve done it, the more comfortable we are in encountering challenges,
obstacles, and all of those things that life presents. Right? So that’s a lot
to embrace. And, and so we had had a lot of conversations afterward with
friends and folks who had watched it and weighed in. And my friend Tina, for
example wanted to make the point that it’s not so much for her about what
others think of us, what, how others perceive us––but how she looks in the
mirror matters to her, she feels. How she looks to herself helps her feel one
way or another about herself, comfort in her own skin or not. And that led to a
discussion we want to have. You’d mentioned this last time. What, what makes us
feel attractive, right?
Thea: 02:04 And what do we find
attractive? And where does that stem from? How do we cultivate it? Because we
all like feeling attractive and we all like to be attracted too or from.
Anne: 02:18 Yes, yes, yes. We like to
try attractive and attracted. Yes, indeed. So what makes you feel most
Thea: 02:35 So what does make me feel
attractive, and what makes you feel attractive? Feeling energetic, feeling
vital, feeling a sense of power and a sense of ease. I think those are two
things that I feel good in myself when I feel those things. I mean, the very
clear distinction would be if I’m ill, we don’t feel attractive, right? So when
we’re feeling alive to the world and that comes in different capacities and
through different channels at different times. Sometimes it’s––feeling a real
strong sense of purpose gives me a sense of vitality and powerfulness and
capacity I think.
Anne: 03:33 Ah, yes. Yes. Well
capableness, even. Right?
Thea: 03:38 Yeah. Yeah. Feeling
capable. I mean that’s where the power I think is, really, is feeling capable
to meet what comes and what presents itself to me and I was going to go
somewhere else too. Now I don’t remember. Maybe you have something else to
throw in there.
Anne: 03:57 No, I mean, you know,
what makes me feel attractive? You know, I think I probably feel most
attractive when I’m less aware of myself that way or other. When I’m in it,
when I’m present, when I’m connecting very much with someone. When I am doing
what I feel my purpose is to do, when I am living my purpose, when I, when I am
following my passion in whatever way that manifests. When I am, I mean, and I
don’t want to sound contrived. I was just thinking when I am involved in
something––I’ve been involved in causes that are larger than myself. When I’m
involved that way, I feel vital and right. And yes, powerful. All of those
things that you mentioned. When I am helping people. A couple of days ago
someone was in need and a few of us were helping that person in need. I think
that that like purposeful when we’re all working together to help someone out.
Thea: 05:31 Capable. Meeting what’s
in front of you. So it’s interesting as you know––speaking about what makes us
feel attractive––it’s about being necessary, needed. These are the things that
give us that sense of being appealing because we feel like we’re fulfilling
Anne: 05:57 Significant! We feel
significant, we feel significant to whatever it is we’re bringing ourselves to.
Thea: 06:10 And then, I mean, and
then that leads me…you know, of course those things flow easier for me when
my body feels healthy and strong. When I’m rested, when I have a good rhythm in
my life. So health, feeling healthy allows me to fulfill my obligations, allows
me to fulfill them beyond the base minimum or the bare minimum. Into, like,
giving my inspiration, using my inspiration, being inspired. So really, so I’m
thinking attractive to me is synonymous with good. Feeling good. Right?
Anne: 06:58 Yeah. But I also really
like what you just said––inspired. I mean that kind of encapsulates everything
that we were just talking about. Feeling inspired.
Thea: 07:07 And that can happen
through my own work, through whatever it is that my passion or my sense of
purpose and meaning comes. It can also come through ignited moments with other
people. Right? And that can come in different forms, can come through
conversation, can come through appreciation of something beautiful together
with somebody and seeing something with someone else.
Anne: 07:37 Yes! And that’s what I
was talking about with that connection. That I think that’s one of the biggest
things that’s attractive to me in other people is a connection. You know, I
mean, that only makes sense, right? When, when we’re on the same wavelength or
if we’re on the same big wavelength together or something and meeting each
other there and they’re seeing what I’m seeing and we’re back and forth, that’s
very attractive to me. Right?
Thea: 08:06 Yes. And I would add to
that, the other thing that makes me think or find someone attractive is when
someone IS capable, when someone is in their own purpose and when someone else
is fulfilling their destiny, or searching or seeking to fulfill it and is
finding their own inspiration. That draws me to them. Because there’s something
happening in that.
Anne: 08:38 Yes. It’s dynamic. But,
but also when they’re doing it in, in such a way that is without
self-consciousness. Right? And that’s, that’s when courage, I mean courage is
attractive in many forms, but when someone is seeking, when someone is trying,
when someone’s doing, when someone is exploring, that’s all very attractive.
Right? And you know, and then in terms of like, you know, just the requisite
list of what do I find attractive? And let’s, let’s acknowledge that we’re
women, right? And, and women are different than men which is the age old thing.
And I don’t know what it’s like to be a man, though I’d say, I don’t know, with
different hormonal changes or whatever as I get older, you know, I can get us
more of a sense of where they’re so drawn and driven aesthetically, sometimes,
but stillwe’re different.
Anne: 09:41 But I also want to point
out that that article that I had written about wrinkles and gray hair means
we’ve arrived––I got a lot of good feedback from men who expressed that they,
they don’t like the fakeness either. That’s not important enough to them. But
there are so many other aspects of a woman that are what draws them. Right? And
vitality and health of course, right? It only makes sense for all the reasons
you mentioned, but but back to what, what I find attractive is the mind, you
know, I’m, I’m into the mind, I get drawn to, to people’s minds. I get drawn,
like I said, to, to the connection. Certainly ease and confidence in someone is
very appealing. I have had many relationships in my life and there’s not been
one particular type. There’s been different different sizes and, and colorings
and features and all of those things, right? And because it comes––that
attractiveness and sense of oneself, self-possession––comes in many forms,
Thea: 11:20 So, attractiveness, you
know, sense of beauty and the lack of consciousness about how one is beautiful
in a moment––is what’s beautiful. But as soon as there’s that awareness of how
beautiful one is, it’s affected and it feels unattractive in like a moment. So
it’s a funny, funny thing that can happen, which I think kind of led us into a
little bit of another conversation tying all of this into parenting a bit in
terms of how to allow our children to grow up without this scrutinizing
self-consciousness––which, which comes in different phases and at different
ages anyway coming into becoming. But the lack of, of having lots of mirrors
for children to be studying themselves. Because if we get, I mean, I’m thinking
of myself as an adolescent right now and there is this, there was for me a period
of like really scrutinizing myself in a mirror, which, which was never
pleasing. I mean, it, it never made me feel better. Well I remember some
conversations with you, but I won’t bring those on here.
Anne: 12:50 Are you thinking of
Thea: 12:53 Totally. Hilarious. But
you know, it’s, it’s about getting outside of ourselves. Cause when we go into
ourselves, we, we become less happy. I mean we can take that into talking about
when one feels depressed. I mean, I remember adolescence and having that
feeling of depression. And that was when I was focusing on myself. So much. So
it’s like getting outside of oneself, we become more beautiful and we become
happier, which those are like two sides of the same coin anyway. And, and so
thinking about our children, not having photographs of your children all over
the place in your home because we are not these finite beings. We are more than
that. Right? And that’s the thing about this, when we’re having, you know,
artificial work, I can’t remember what the word was
Anne: 13:58 Cosmetic enhancements.
Thea: 13:58 Cosmetic enhancements.
That’s working just with this finite physical being, which is not the thing
that makes us attractive. I mean, sure, there are moments, there’s classic, you
know, there, there are beautiful features, but it becomes more and more
apparent as we live that it’s what’s coming through this being that we find
appealing or not.
Anne: 14:23 Well, you know, let’s
also recognize the fact that there’ve been different definitions of what beauty
is in the first place. Right? So, so yes, what’s coming through us probably is
more what drives that rather than the other way around. Right. Perhaps so happened
to be that what was coming through certain folks who had certain features and,
well, the big breasts makes sense. That’s fertility. But you know, the lean
athletic versus the round…
Thea: 15:07 Voluptuous.
Anne: 15:09 Yeah, it all changes. It
goes back and forth. And so, yes, perhaps what drove that is that a lot of the
doers, the figures of the time, resembled that instead. Right?
Thea: 15:22 Or what impulses were
needed in different times. Was it more of a softening, comforting, gesture to a
world that was suffering or was it like, get shit done. So that’s an
Anne: 15:42 Right. But back to what
you mentioned about the photographs for example, I mean, I remember being, you
know, again, you being my parenting mentor and you making me aware of the fact
that taking shot after shot of your kid at every angle at one, at two or
whatever, and putting them up on the wall. It’s like first off, it pulls the
kid out of themselves once they become aware of the camera in the first place,
right? Second, then they’re looking around at all of these stages of
themselves, which are not them anymore in the first place. So, you know, just
seems to muck things up. The mirror thing, which followed on a conversation I
had with Tina, it’s like, it does start making me wonder. Has this trend toward
image and appearance come along with this age of abundance and materialism
where we just have so much stuff, which means we have mirrors all over the
place. And then go, go beyond that to Hollywood celluloid and the emphasis on
image, and then of course TV. And then now digital cameras and smart phones,
surveillance. You know, you’re on camera all the time. So has that been what
has driven this and, and perhaps we need to take a step back and more
consciously figure out how to––amidst all of that, amidst living in a
fishbowl––make a conscious attempt to remember, remind ourselves that that’s
not necessarily what, well, that’s not all we’re about. Right?
Thea: 17:42 Thank goodness.
Anne: 17:45 And then the final thing
I’ll say that struck me as you were talking is, you know, we’ve talked about
confidence, ease in oneself being in that moment that, that beautiful
harmonious moment of just purpose and doing. That is a very attractive quality
in anyone and to ourselves, for ourselves. If we are spending a lot of effort
and time on contriving ourselves…
Thea: 18:23 On the artifice…
Anne: 18:23 Then not only do we know
that, and that ultimately might not make us feel so confident and at ease with
ourselves even when we’re looking in the mirror, right? Because we’re seeing
that insecurity manifest. And this, that fixation that self focus. We’re seeing
that self focus manifest on our faces when we do cosmetic enhancements, makeup,
whatever. But other people do too. Right? It’s revealing. It’s revealing and
when we get a little too hung up in ourselves, that reveals itself and that
doesn’t move us toward attractiveness to ourselves or to anyone. Right?
Thea: 19:27 I would even then just
add, it’s like, you know, our good efforts, our true and good efforts not only
ripple out and are attractive to our friends, our partners, ourselves, but it’s
good rippling into the world. You know, those moments of, of ease and wisdom.
That’s good for all. Right? So, so that attractiveness is not just an
attractiveness of mate to mate or whatever, you know, it is a ripple into the world.
Anne: 20:11 It’s moving out into the
world rather than getting fixed in here and contracted. It’s expansive, right?
Thea: 20:19 It’s expansive, yeah. And
growing and reverberates, you know, and those are things that make us feel
good, you know? I feel good when someone else is rippling into their goodness,
you know? And that comes back and forth and those things expand all of us into
something bigger. Than just our own small self.
Anne: 20:46 Yes. Okay. All right.
Well let’s wrap it up with that and so maybe the point to remember and practice
a bit is to evaluate whether or not––don’t put a lot of thought into it––but
it’s like these efforts that we’re putting into appearance or whatever, does it
ultimately make us feel good? Do we actually ultimately feel good? Does it feel
good and right?
Thea: 21:19 And, and then, you know,
depending on different people’s habits, you know, I see myself in the morning
when I brush my teeth before I go to school or work or out. But otherwise I
don’t really see myself much during the day. So maybe even just taking note of
how often you see yourself or see reflection of yourself.
Anne: 21:42 Put the mirrors away! Cover
them up. Do a one week experiment. Cover up all the mirrors in your house. And
see how you’re feeling about yourself after that.
Thea: 21:56 Yeah. It might be, it
might be an interesting thing. I remember doing that at different times.
Anne: 22:03 ‘Cause You got so caught
up in your?
Thea: 22:07 I think it was when my
kids were young, I just kind of…
Anne: 22:10 Exactly. Oh, now I
remember. Yes. You did. Just to, to not distract them with all of that, right?
Thea: 22:18 Yeah. I mean, you know,
it’s good to try. But it is fun to see a cat find themselves in the mirror. So
I remember seeing that too. That’s pretty fun.
Anne: 22:25 Yeah, I get it. I get it.
Okay. I was going to say one thing about my kids, but now I was, I was
reprimanded for sharing too much about my kids, so I won’t, but, kids in
mirrors sometimes…I’ll just say this. I remember being a kid and crying and
sobbing in the mirror. And watching all of my expressions. Right?
Thea: 22:48 I think I remember seeing
you do that, actually.
Anne: 22:55 My sidekick. Alright.
Well, thank you so much for fitting this in. See how this one goes. Love to
you. Love to everyone. Love to you, Tina. Okay, bye. Hang on a sec.
For all this talk of female empowerment, injecting Botox into one’s face seems anything but. Let’s embrace the face we’ve lived, and let’s free ourselves from this prison of artifice and illusion.
Join my sister Thea Mason and me as we discuss and examine the impulse behind the Botox trend, and a different way of conceiving our wrinkles, gray hair and…gap teeth:) And how these badges of experience serve to empower us.
Anne: 00:05 So we are recording this
evening for the first time in the evening, and you are also recording from the
road, so we’ll see how the signal works. So this conversation we want to follow
on last week’s. Last week’s, we called “Claiming Our Authority.” We
were discussing the fact that it seems we’re living in a culture in which
people seem to trust outside authority over their own. And we think that’s a
problem. We think that people need to get more in touch with their own inner
compass, inner guide, inner voice than they are right now. And that’s not to
say we don’t value the advice of trusted friends, family, therapists or
whatever, when we need perspective and help, but there seems to be a pattern a
trend toward looking to experts for almost everything these days.
Thea: 01:27 Handing over one’s own
authority, one’s own responsibility, self responsibility to another figure.
Anne: 01:37 Yes. Yes. And as we discussed this, we, we linked it to this, to the fact that image is such a predominant theme in our world, image over essence. You have used this, you’ve articulated this a lot. And the artifice and pretense at work in our world. And we determined that the direction we need to go in to help people reclaim or claim their authority is too recognize image and the value of image––the value of image as a model sometimes for something to aspire to, and to imitate, perhaps ? You had discussed, you had used as an example, like your teacher, you know, who do you sound like at first when you’re trying things out? You sound like your teacher until you make it your own. But it seems as if we’ve gotten stuck in the image and imitation and not moved it to the essence.
Anne: 03:00 And it then led us to an
off-camera discussion about, you know, maybe just little steps like you know,
we’re makeup free gray hair, not a lot of pretense here, I think. And you
hilariously made the joke back to me saying “And I’ll raise you one gap
tooth.” And we realized that’s the starting point of this next one. We
need to talk about this. We need to talk about your gap tooth and how you came
to terms with your gap tooth and the process you went through when you suddenly
had a gap tooth as a grown woman.
Thea: 03:45 Yeah. Okay. So I’ll make
this real quick. So this gap tooth is made by orthodontia, essentially, a
misdirected well-intentioned parents following directions of an orthodontist.
And so I had a fake tooth for many years that never felt comfortable. And
because of the way the orthodontia experience went, had created a crooked tooth
in my mouth, they had like made my front tooth crooked, which had actually
given me headaches for years, which led me towards different healing modalities
to heal myself when I was young. So, you know, I learned a lot. And then at one
point, I guess I must have been in my thirties and my fake tooth that was glued
into my mouth had fallen out for a weekend when I was traveling in Indiana,
where we’re from. And I was like, darn darn darn it. Here I am! And and it was
out for a few days and I felt extremely vulnerable and insecure at first. Very
exposed. But in those couple of days, because this tooth had been yanked to the
side and was crooked and had been creating pressure in my skull, I started to
feel this deep release through my whole being, not having the fake tooth in
Thea: 05:18 And so I knew that I
needed to take it out. I knew I wasn’t quite ready. I was going to take a
little bit of the pain for my vanity or something for a little bit, but I had
sort of given myself a timeframe. And so from that point, I think it was about
a year later, I took it out. Because I had been sort of just working with
envisioning myself with a gap tooth so that my tooth could relax. And you know,
I happen to work with children, and I play games as has come up many times. So
I took it out and my first day back at school, you know I was a pirate playing
a pirate game. So just “Arrgh!” And I really kind of stepped into it
and took it on and became really open. And it literally has changed my life.
Thea: 06:14 I was in a relationship
that was not super positive or healthy, and the person I had been in this
relationship with had even remarked, “You have not been the same since you
took out your tooth.” And so that has given me this journey to myself.
Anne: 06:35 All right, we’ll see.
We’ll see how this signal goes. The signal’s coming in and out. So you were,
you were saying, so this relationship that you were in at the time…
Thea: 06:45 This relationship that I
had been in for many years with the fake tooth in my mouth this person had
remarked that once I took it out and, and life, you know, I was changing and
claiming more of myself and my right to be and to yeah…
Anne: 07:08 Your authority.
Thea: 07:10 My authority. And you
know, this person had remarked that I had never been the same since I took my
fake tooth out, which, you know, had freed me from some idea of how I was to
be. And I do remember, I mean, I was definitely feeling vulnerable and exposed
with it for a period of time in the beginning. And I remember probably
remarking to you, or at least to myself, that this is kind of like, this lets
me know who someone is right away. This is something that stops someone’s way
of relating to me, I’m not interested. You know?
Anne: 07:56 Right. It kind of culls
the herd right off the bat, right? Yeah. I mean that, that to me, I mean, so
many people would have gotten work done to mask a gap in your tooth right
there, right? And to go through that process and be uncomfortable over and over
meeting the world, you know? That is, that’s growing, right? That’s growing.
And that’s, that’s so freeing to get through that and come out the other side.
Right? And well that leads me to, so talk about what we were, we had been
talking about a little bit and I just wrote a little article about it too––but
the topic of cosmetic work and or Botox injections or whatever has been, has
come up in my circle of folks of women too. And then you and I talked a little
bit about that where I’m trying to get my head around that. That idea of taking
measures, which is essentially injecting poison into your face to paralyze the
facial muscles so that they don’t move. So it doesn’t form wrinkles, so that we
look younger than we normally would look, right?
Thea: 09:40 Young? I mean, can I say
younger? I mean, that’s not…
Anne: 09:47 That we look, we look less wrinkly than we otherwise would, right? And I, you know, I touched on the fact that I think there’s, I think there’s a problem with that. And I, again, I acknowledge that, you know, I’ve always been content with the way I look. So yeah, I’m grateful for that, you know, so I understand. I haven’t walked in everyone’s shoes. But you know, I, I like my gray hair. I like these crow’s feet. I like these lines. These lines represent my experience! My, like I put it, my legitimacy. It is who I am. And, and I bring that to the table, right? So this obsession with looking other than we are is something that I think is getting people stuck. You know, it’s not just, I mean, that follows that we get stuck otherwise as well. Right? If we’re perpetually seeking to look different, be different, look different.
Thea: 11:16 Well, actually making
this body stuck. I mean, actually, that’s what it’s doing—is making it stop.
And that is the opposite of growth and flow. That’s not what we are here to do
or to be.
Anne: 11:37 Well, and you know,
honestly the way I look at it is kind of like, I mean, we’ve got a life and
then we’ve got death, right? So I’ve always looked at it as if our lives and
the way we live our lives prepare us for that next very beyond unknown
adventure, whatever that is. If we get stuck holding on to something and not
moving past it, whether it’s image or other, then I would imagine it’s going to
make that stepping through that next doorway a lot more challenging. Right? So
you know, and I say, well, we’ve gotten a bit off track here.
Thea: 12:27 We have a little bit,
but, so maybe we’ll just find where we’re going and if it’s not, it’s not, but
what that makes me think of a little bit is I mean really in this aging, I
mean, you’re saying “This is who I am.” This isn’t who you are. I know
that’s not what you mean. Like you aren’t your lines, but this is the story of
your life that you’ve carried. Right? And really it seems like as we age, the
idea is to be able to drop this more easily. This whole thing. Yes. And
instead, people are going to the gesture of grabbing it and holding onto it
while they decompose, you know?
Anne: 13:13 Yeah. It’s holding onto
the artifice. Isn’t it? Holding on to artifice. So I’ll share a little story
too. And I wrote about this as well, but I look at womanhood in basically the
three archetypal stages of maiden, mother, crone. And I, I feel I’m in the
mother stage right now. I mean, I am, I’m, I’m mothering my kids are halfway
there, I’d say. And I remember, yeah, right before I embarked on this journey
of starting a family and having these children, I was sitting with a filmmaker
who liked to just randomly just take pictures as you’re sitting there. And I
knew how to take pictures quite well and I knew how to pose, and in that
moment, I made this conscious decision as, as he pulled the camera up, to not
pose. To just look straight at it, because I realized I was walking through a
doorway as I was embarking on this new life and I was no longer the, the
maiden. I was no longer the, I wasn’t the ingenue, right? I was owning my, my
entrance into the next stage of motherhood, womanhood. And that was very
significant to me. But it was a conscious decision, conscious choice. Right? So
as I also had mentioned in this article, you know, there’s a place for each
stage. We need the maidens and their fertile, supple bodies. But what, what
comes with that is also a naivete. And, a hopeful naivete, which serves us very
well and serves the world very well, but that also needs to be tempered by the
mother, that next stage of woman who has experienced and who has honed her
purpose and brings her experience to the table as well. We need her as well.
And we also need the crone in her wisdom, in her deep wisdom of life’s
experience having gone through maidenhood through motherhood and
grandparenthood and even beyond because our perspective changes greatly as we
move through life.
Anne: 16:16 But if we’ve got a bunch
of we’ve got the maidens sitting at the table, the, the women trying to look
like maidens sitting at the table and the crones also looking like maidens
something’s off whack and we’re not going to move forward. Right? So I guess
let’s wrap it up by, by just, you know, concluding that there is such a
liberation in shedding that one stage. And that identity, right? I’m not the
pretty young thing anymore. Right?
Thea: 16:58 Right. Well, yeah, I mean
sure, yes. Pretty young, I dunno. I just, you’re very pretty. And I think
getting prettier, you know, is, is the other thing. There’s, there’s something
to a person, inhabiting themselves more fully and completely that is
breathtaking. So, so that’s the thing. I mean, I, I think what I would want to
take us to a discussion next time is what is it we really find appealing and
attractive in people, in our friends, in our lovers? What is it? Because it’s
not the lack of wrinkles, right? Wrinkles and gray hair can be just the
sexiest, most delightful thing ever, right? So, why? What is it we’re holding
onto there? What is it that we are, in a culture, still trying to hold in our
hands and we name it as smooth skin. Like what is that? Is it, is it
hopefulness? Is it that that’s actually what’s being lost? And so holding onto
the image of what we were when we were hopeful? You know, there’s a whole lot
Anne: 18:25 Yeah. and also to kind
of, to explore who is driving this, too, in a way. Like, we talk a lot about
female empowerment, but this is anything but, right? So are we mistakenly
seeking something that is not even that, which is something to aspire to even
even on a superficial level? Right? Are women doing this for men? Are men doing
this for women? I know some women will talk about the fact that it will up
their confidence to look better, to look more youthful and that aids them in
all areas of life. But that still comes from some, some original impulse that
that youthful look is something that is so highly valued even when you are
almost 49 years old or whatever it is. Right? Or 70 years old.
Thea: 19:45 Right. It’s so hard for
me to really grasp that, that I just keep thinking that it’s actually we’re
grasping after a feeling rather than a looking. Right? And that’s where the
image part is––what we can look at in a picture and see ourselves when we were
young and didn’t have wrinkles and remember the state of mind, maybe? Or the
state of feeling that we were in, and that’s what we’re reaching for rather
than actually this skin. I, you know, I don’t know.
Anne: 20:19 No, you got it. You got
it. It’s the tangible, it’s something that we can, we can grab basically. So
perhaps it goes much deeper than that, but, but the only way we can quantify
it, materialize it, is with Botox or facelifts or something.
Thea: 20:38 Or the only way we think
we can, yeah. Right?
Anne: 20:41 Right. So next time we’ll
talk about that. We’ll see how this one turns out with all your frame
Thea: 20:49 Yeah, sorry.
Anne: 20:50 No, hey, it is what it is. We roll with it. Right? It’s all about the substance and not the image. All right. Let me end the recording. Thank you for doing this. Hold on.
We put so much effort into toxin free living, why would we then inject it into our faces? Let’s embrace these badges of experience and wisdom instead of trying to diminish, mask or erase them.
The topic of Botox, facelifts and aging has come up a lot recently in my circle of women. I’m almost 49, and my circle of friends includes thirty, forty and fifty something women. Like most anyone, I had encountered or knew women who had had cosmetic surgery or botox injections done, but I’ve only recently become aware of how widespread a practice it has become. And I’m quite shocked.
I’ve apparently been completely out of the loop, but I had been under the impression that the plastic surgery trend had peaked in the US in the 80s/90s and was on the decline. And while I was aware of the practice of injecting something into one’s face to reduce lines and wrinkles, I had the impression it was primarily employed by Hollywood actresses and occasional Ladies who Lunch.
Botox has become an increasingly common procedure even offered at beauty salons and spas, and women of all walks and ages seem to be jumping on the bandwagon. I recently learned that women I know in their thirties have been getting routine Botox treatments. And I hear it’s now recommended that women even in their twenties get started on this procedure, ostensibly to prevent wrinkles from even developing in the first place in the normal course of a lifetime of smiling or furrowing one’s brow.
I had no idea what Botox actually was. I wasn’t even aware there was any difference between that and collagen injections. There is. Botox is what actually causes BOTULISM! It’s the toxin produced by Clostridium botulinum bacteria which causes the flaccid paralysis which leads to the respiratory failure associated with botulism food poisoning fatalities. People now pay to have this poison injected into their faces to paralyze the facial muscles in order that they don’t move and cause wrinkles.
I can’t really even believe that I’m typing that as if it’s a normal thing. Isn’t this insane? Isn’t this another huge warning sign that our culture is heading in the wrong direction? And even more bizarre, many women who engage in this practice are the same women who advocate for organic, non-GMO food, and who strive to live as toxin-free lives as possible––for themselves and for their families.
How can we resolve this disconnect?
I understand I haven’t walked in everyone’s shoes. I also understand I’ve been blessed with an appearance I’m content with. I’m a pretty healthy, active, and fairly fit 48 year old woman. My parents raised me with an emphasis on physical exercise and health, and I’m sure that’s served me well as I’ve gotten older. And I live in Northern California, where it’s conducive to be outdoors a lot, breathing in the fresh air and taking in the healthy sunshine. All good ingredients toward physical health.
However, I’m still trying to get my head around this idea of trying to look younger than we are. Especially for a married woman who has already had her children. Why would I want to look younger than 48? I am 48!
I know this isn’t the norm, but in my 20s and 30s, I looked forward to reaching my 40s. My younger self felt that by 40, I would have reached an age of legitimacy. An age by which I had gained enough life experience that I would have enough of a clue to be able to own my space here on Earth. That I would legitimately have a say about how things are done. That I would finally touch what it must feel like to be the respected elder in the society.
“Female Empowerment” is a popular slogan these days. A forty something year old woman paying someone to inject paralyzing poison into her facial muscles in an attempt to look younger than her maturely wizened self seems anything but empowered. It suggests she does not want to be who or where she is in life. It suggests she regrets her life’s experience. It suggests she wishes she were younger.
I enjoyed my youth, and I enjoyed my twenties and thirties. But I think most women would agree that there is a unique pleasure in reaching one’s forties. I think we kind of catch up to ourselves as we shed the maiden self in need of approval, protection, acceptance. Women in their forties stop caring as much about what others think or want them to do or be, and they begin to inhabit themselves more fully. Women in their forties take their life’s experience and apply it to new endeavors, new careers, new companies, new directions. In my and many of my peers’ experience, the forties can be a lot of fun. We’ve taken enough turns around the sun to know what life’s about, and we start really enjoying and understanding this human female experience.
I don’t want to return to the naivety of my youth, when life was more overwhelming, and decisions more fraught with worry or anxiety. The future is now, and I embrace all that’s led me here. I regard my gray hair with reverence and respect. I consider it powerful. It represents my wisdom and experience. My smile lines and crow’s feet indicate a life fully experienced, felt and lived. My forehead lines indicate years of expression and contemplation. This is what I bring to the table. This is what demonstrates my authority. My age. My experience. My wisdom.
I am not the virgin maiden anymore. I am a mother and a wife, a homeowner and a business owner. I gave birth to two kids and breastfed them, and it shows. My tummy is not as taut or flat as it was before motherhood. My hips are wider. My breasts are saggier. My body has done the beautiful job it was blessed to do. Why would I want it to look as if it hadn’t been through that blessed experience and rite of womanhood passage?
This life is a process of growth and stages and development. I perceive the three distinct stages of a woman’s life––if she’s fortunate to live long enough––as the archetypal maiden, mother, crone. The fertile maiden brings a supple body and a fresh and hopeful naivety to the table. We need her. The mature mother brings a capable body of experience and honed purpose to the table. We need her. The crone brings the wisdom of the years of maidenhood, motherhood, grandparenthood and beyond to the table. We need her.
But if all we’ve got sitting around the table are maidens, mothers trying to be maidens, and crones trying to be maidens, how far can we go? How powerful can we be? How can we move forward into the future, when we’re desperately clinging to some illusion of the past? If we want to be treated with reverence and respect, we must behave like grown-ups. We should allow our physical selves to reflect the experience we bring to the world, and we should embrace the power in that. And stop injecting poison into our bodies in order to look like little girls.
In a world full of pretense and artifice, we’ve been taught to look outside ourselves for answers. Let’s penetrate this false belief by reaching for the essence beyond the image.
Anne: 00:01 And we’re recording. Hi,
Thea: 00:03 Hello there.
Anne: 00:06 So we’re going to try to
make this another quickie. And what, and I’ll, I’ll lead right in to where
we’re going, I think. I was telling you before we started recording that my
son, a couple of days ago, had asked for some advice. And the advice was at, at
our homeschool park day, we have a variety of ages and, it was a new member
park day too, so we had even more new people, new kids. There were a lot of
youngers. And when I say youngers, I mean even younger than school age. So four
year olds, five year olds. And he asked me, he said that he and one of his
other homeschool buddies––they’re both about 11––were playing one-on-one
basketball. And they were playing with my son’s ball and his friend’s ball was
to the side.
Anne: 01:10 And this little girl,
this four year old came over and she wanted to play with the ball and shoot
baskets, join in with them. And they tried to I think redirect her, which
didn’t work too well, and it sounds like in the end she grabbed the ball and
was shooting hoops, trying to shoot hoops right in the midst of them playing.
Right? So what to do, how to manage that. And I said, well, if your friend is
okay with her playing with his ball, the thing to do is to say “If you
bring your mom or dad, whomever’s there with you at the park over to supervise
you, you can then go play at the other basket with this ball. We’ll allow you
to do that. But we want someone watching you so you don’t get hurt.” And
it led to a discussion about boundaries and about the fact that what I find is
that we are often helping people, children reminding them that there are
boundaries. That we, we are helping children establish boundaries. And really,
ultimately we are helping parents be parents, I find a lot these days. Because
I explained to my son, the parent should have been there. The parent should
have been aware of where their four year old was if the four-year-old is not
capable of recognizing that there is something going on here that they need to
respect and not intrude upon. The parent needs to be there, and the parent
wasn’t there. Right?
Thea: 03:00 Right. And can I jump in
here? And then there’s that part where the 11 year old boys have that
opportunity to say, “Hey we see you want to play, but we’ve got a game
going on. So you can sit and watch for a little while, ’cause we don’t want to
knock you over ’cause we might be getting a little rough. You know. So there’s
that, that teaching moment that comes for those young children to teach a
younger and that’s how, that’s part of that village picture too. You know, if
the parent isn’t available or isn’t around, ’cause that’s what, that’s what
they would do if it was their younger sibling. Like “No, sorry you can’t
play. We’re already playing and we don’t want to have to totally alter our
experience right now.” And then there are those times where, I mean I, in
terms of those kind of social dynamics where you know, my boys ranging eight
years, you know, they would go down to the park and shoot hoops and then other
kids in the neighborhood would join in. And there is something that’s just so
beautiful about that ability to play safely with those varying degrees, which
we’ve talked about in various conversations about the youngest being the
oldest, sometimes. The oldest being the, you know, the different roles they get
Thea: 04:22 And then I can recall in
the early days of my eldest, when I had time to spend at the park at that time,
those experiences of meeting other children and parents and, and those social
things, that’s a learning sphere right there for new parents. And I remember
sensing that nobody really knows what the rules are. There aren’t any rules
here. And how do we find our way and shape and hold this for our children,
right? Because there’d be some people who would bring toys. There’d be some
people here. And so are we expecting them all to share? What works out here?
And then there is that step as a parent where one comes into, “these are
my rules and this is how we’re going to do it.” Right? And then that lets
the kids know where they are too, you know? And so other parents, as long as
people are civil and courteous with one another, everyone can know where
everyone is and can respect those spaces. But that doesn’t happen until someone
steps up and says, Hey, this really isn’t appropriate for you right now, four
year old. Dear sweet child, you can come sit over here and watch. You know, but
no one knows until someone says something.
Anne: 05:48 Right! And, and so and
what we’ve talked about, like you’re saying here and we talked about in the
past is that there is an extreme lack, I think of parents knowing to step up
and say that. And, and so what you and I have talked about throughout many of
our talks, we’ve talked about resilience, we’ve talked about autonomy. We have
talked about boundaries spacial dynamics, spacial relationships, respect
breeding, you know, begetting resilience, right? And it comes down to, what we
were talking about earlier this morning, is claiming your authority. This needs
to be worked on. People need to be empowered to reclaim or claim their
authority, their authority as grownups, their authority, as parents, their
authority, as people as empowered individuals.
Thea: 06:51 Individuals, yeah. I mean
claiming one’s authority as an individual. And we were just talking about that
a little bit in terms of the reclaiming of that authority of the individual
throughout our broader culture in society. We see that as a trend of lack of
real authority figures, you know, standing tall. I’m sorry, I kinda got a
little sidetracked, but also that’s what’s necessary for true relationship.
Right? Because that’s self responsibility. To really claim my authority in my
life, in my sphere. That comes from me being responsible for myself,
recognizing what I’m responsible for and who I’m responsible for.
Anne: 07:46 Yeah. And trusting one’s
compass, I think. And what we talked about a little bit is that, I mean, again,
I am 48 going on 49, you know, we’re both in our forties. How old are you? I
Thea: 08:04 I’ll be 43 this month.
Anne: 08:06 Right. So it has taken me
certainly to my forties, to feel very comfortable with my authority. And you
know, and I reflect on this. It’s like, I do think it’s a societal thing. I
think that it is certainly a product of our educational system. And many other
things. I think intentionally it is cultivating a culture of people who look
outside themselves to know what to do to look to experts and authorities that are
not them. Right? Whether it is, I mean, we have, we have experts in every
realm. All walks, people pay experts for everything. People won’t do things
because, until their doctor tells them to. People won’t make choices and
instinctively act in certain ways without their lawyer’s advice and, and on and
on and on. Right? So I think we all have to work through that to come out the
other side and recognize that WE are our best authority. But what I think has
really emerged from that culture is this lack of parental authority, too,
right? And lack of individual authority in relationships, in marriages. Also
people going to their shrinks. You know, spouses who have problems. They, you
know, they won’t talk about their problems without a counselor or therapist leading
them lead them through it. Right? This is not the way to go. Right? This is,
this is, this is false belief. That’s a foundation of false belief.
Thea: 09:55 Yes. Whew!
Anne: 09:56 So, you know, in brief,
we, you know, we’ve got just a few minutes, let’s discuss what steps we can
take to cultivate that for people, for ourselves, for our children. And, and
one last thing, just to give you a little something to think about is, I
honestly have learned a great deal about that from you. You’re my six years younger
sister, right? But I grew up being the people pleaser, the parent pleaser. I
was the oldest. I didn’t take my own risks that I felt worth taking until I was
much older than you did when you were taking your risks, I think. I did what I
was supposed to do, right? So it took me a lot longer. And then you had
children before I did. And so I got to look to you as a model, because I saw
what incredible kids you have. You’ve done an amazing job. If anyone knows her
kids, I mean they’re remarkable, extraordinary human beings. And with such a
sense of themselves, other people as they maneuver and navigate through the
world. So you’ve, you’ve really helped me in that way. So I kind of look to you
to impart some words of wisdom, I suppose.
Thea: 11:24 Well, that’s very
generous in that. I think that there are some things that we all have helped
each other, you know, see, for sure. And when we were talking about this a
little bit previous, I think it came out of a remark when I was reflecting on
what my work. What essentially I do for my work is really help to teach young
people what it means to respect themselves and others. That’s what we touch in
upon in relationship. So we can’t really have relationship until we learn where
one is and where the other is––until we learn how those two spaces can meet and
separate in a respectful way. And I mean that’s the work I’m continuing to do
in my own life for sure. But in terms of this sort of work and, and then that
sparked this reflection of something that happened in the playground because
these are social games that I bring to young people. And so in those social
spheres, that’s where we learn. We learn by messing up, and then we learn by
trying it again. We learn that what I said wasn’t clear. And so I have to say it
again in a more clear way. I don’t know if that’s bringing a pointed example,
but I do also feel like this is one other part to share with this. I remember
one of my parenting mentors, Misty––cause she had a daughter eight years older
than our children––and I remember her saying, “Don’t say ‘NO’ unless you
mean it, but say it when you mean it.” And I feel like I’ve seen that in
our culture––there’s a lot of resistance to using absolutes, “NOs”,
you know, “this is a boundary you cannot cross.” But then when people
do use it, they’re using it and not backing it up, without following through,
which makes “NO” mean nothing, you know.
Anne: 13:47 Because they actually
don’t know really what requires the “NO” or doesn’t. And that gets
back to, gosh, it makes me even think about the whole, that’s a whole other
discussion too, but in terms of the relationship between men and women and
“no means no.” It’s like no, it’s not just language. You know, you
have to truly know what feels right and what feels wrong. And when something
feels wrong, it’s, you know, act upon it. When something feels right, act upon
Thea: 14:26 Yeah. And it’s the
recognizing, yes, that the language is like the 10% of our communication. I
don’t know if there’s some study. But everything that’s behind it is what
people are responding to. And I think we’ve talked about that a little bit in
different things here––when we’re trying to create rules that are just material
or just arbitrary, they fail. They mean nothing. And so we now look at where we
are, and a lot of it is due to that, I think, you know.
Anne: 15:08 And I’m just sparking
right now. I’ve been sensing this and this is where I see it. It relates to
artifice and pretense. You have brought this up a couple of times recently
where, what did you say? It’s about the image as opposed to substance?
Thea: 15:28 Yeah, things get caught
up into the image rather than the essence. So much. I mean, I remember talking
about this years and years back when we talked about, you know, different
realms that I’ve lived in, you know, and where the substance, the essence seems
to be lost and people just grab onto the image. The artificial, the material
things that represent the image of the essence.
Anne: 15:55 The trappings. Yes. And
we’re going to actually wrap it up pretty soon, but basically, it makes me
think of just like, like this: I mean, you know, we’re not made up, makeup, all
that. Right? It’s like, I was telling my husband this, that like, as time has
gone on in my life, perhaps as I have lived and forged more of myself, I have a
harder and harder time indulging or engaging in anything like that. It feels so
unreal, somehow. Putting make-up on, even. Right?
Thea: 16:37 Pointless.
Anne: 16:37 Yeah. so there’s that.
Same with, I remember years and years and years ago, in my 20s, starting to
have this sense of people in my adult life––as I was encountering adults, I
would recognize that some people seemed, or a lot of people seemed like they
were pretending to be grownups. They would say things that sounded to me like
things they had heard that they think sounds grown up, but I could tell they
weren’t really grownups. Right? So it’s all wrapped up in that similar thing of
artifice, pretense, academic learning, abstract learning versus knowing this.
Right? So there’s, there’s so much of that that we have to explore in another
Thea: 17:26 We will, and I have to
say one more thing before we close it, because there’s something here. I’m
gonna try to be really brief, but there’s something in the image. Because I
think when you’re talking like that––of people that you would see that would be
acting like they were grownups, right? Imitation. And so that, that draws me to
the young child. They learn through imitation. We learn through imitation, but
it has to then translate. It has to evolve into the being. It has to evolve
into the beingness of the essence. But what we’re seeing in our culture so much
is that it, it circles and circles and circles around in the image. Into the
image imitation rather than it dropping into the essence and then the
evolution. There’s something there for us to go more with next time. But that
has something to do with the inability to step into true authority. Because if
you are functioning in this artifice, this image, and you’re only in the
imitation––which is a process! Part of that is necessary. Right? I mean, I
think of, when I’ve learned to teach, who do I sound like? My teacher. Until I
digest it and it’s become myself and then I’m me. So it’s a process.
Anne: 18:54 Right. We model, we model
and then learn, right? We model and try things out. Until we embrace or discard
what doesn’t work for us. Right? But we seem to be caught in this cycle of
imitation and pretense and fear.
Thea: 19:10 And the appearance.
Anne: 19:10 The appearance. Where the
appearance is so important, as opposed to the truth. Truth! And substance.
Thea: 19:19 Substance and truth.
Anne: 19:21 Which is messy too. So.
Thea: 19:22 Oh, and but, but so
clean. The substance and the truth is clean because everything else falls off
of it. But let’s stop there.
Anne: 19:35 Yeah. I get it. Yeah.
This one’s a teaser, it’s a teaser, so, all right. Well, we’ll go from that and
talk a little bit about this before we go to our next deeper one following on
this. Okay. Thank you.
Sisters Anne Mason and Thea Mason impart the secret men seem to have trouble grasping these days: A fulfilling sex life can be maintained throughout all stages of marriage if husbands empower their wives to fully inhabit their sacred role as mothers––and have faith in their wives’ mother wisdom above their own fears. Sex is like love––you have to give in order to get.
Anne: 00:01 Hey, Thea.
Thea: 00:02 Hey, Anne.
Anne: 00:03 All right, so we want to make this one a true quickie. We were a bit too meandering. We just recorded, and we’re going to just kind of recap what we were talking about and get to the heart of it and make it short. We talked, we were following on the conversations we’ve been having about men and women, relationships, the dynamic between men and women in microcosm as well as macrocosm in the larger, broader culture. And we identified the fact that one of the issues is expectations and, and managing expectations.
Thea: 00:47 And misunderstood
expectations and, sort of, uneducated expectations.
Anne: 00:56 And, you know, I had
opened it up by observing, sharing my observation about a couple we both know
who got married young but who were both brought up in the Catholic faith––and
were counseled. You know, I think the prerequisite to being married in the
church must be, I don’t know to go through counseling sessions with their
priest to talk some things out and establish some expectations and foundation
before they enter into it. And what I observed, what I’ve observed over the
years is that they have weathered some remarkable storms together and are still
healthy and happy. And it makes me lament the fact that we were not given that
kind of guidance before entering into relationships many failed relationships
in our past. And and, and it wasn’t just because we weren’t brought up in a
traditionally religious household, but I think it was a combination of that as
well as this, this culture of this feminist culture that we’ve been brought up
in where the differences between men and women are not emphasized. They’re not
brought to our awareness and consciousness so that we approach relationships
with that basic understanding. And I would say my, my younger earlier
relationships certainly went––I would attribute some of their failure to the
fact that really, I had no understanding of that. And my expectations were just
Thea: 03:01 Yeah.
Anne: 03:02 So it brought us to the
discussion about sex. And go ahead.
Thea: 03:10 And what’s and what’s
required or needed to flow between in a, within a relationship, in order for
sex to be able to be a constant through the many different stages of a family’s
life. Right? So go ahead and step in. I feel like I’m still forming what I,
what I have.
Anne: 03:35 Well you had said
something in that last conversation. It was, it was just basically, you know,
we, we both quite honestly want to have sex!
Thea: 03:45 Right. It may makes
everyone feel better and do everything better.
Anne: 03:50 Yes! There is so much to
gain from a healthy sex sexual relationship with, which requires real true
openness to be existing between two people. Right. Because it’s so when
there’s, when there was the free flowing channel that is not riddled with
resentment because my man is not functioning like my girlfriend would or
whatever. Then if it’s free and flowing then it can be great and more satisfying
and more frequent. Exactly. And just to not get too deeply into this, but we
talked a little bit about priorities, right? Prioritizing, putting priorities
in place in approaching the relationship. And we discussed what we’re really
talking about mainly is unions with children involved. Families. And once you
have entered into the contract of having children together, it becomes a
different beast, a different thing. Right? And really it seems to me that the
relationship itself has to be the top priority. That does not discount the
needs of the individuals in the relationship, but if the relationship is made
the priority, that gives one I think an ability to be a bit more objective, not
personalize things so much. Also very helpful to understand that we have very
different needs, very different ways of understanding each other, different
forms of communication. And more. And so if we can prioritize the relationship
and say, Hey, something’s not working here. Why is it not working? It’s not
working because I feel I’m not getting this or I need this or such and such and
such. Well, we can then establish whether or not the other person can help that
person get that or not. And obviously honesty in that is helpful.
Thea: 06:13 Which is, you know, self
knowing is a prerequisite for that too. And, you know, having compassion for
the different stages of life, we know as much as we know at different times. I
mean, so––struggle. That’s part of the learning. All of it.
Anne: 06:28 Absolutely. Obviously.
And, and even the, again, compassion for someone who’s very different than you.
Right. Right. And without even having to understand it, but just compassion for
it and respect for it. Right? And it brought us to the conversation that we
started having about couples that, that we know, I mean, relationships we’ve
been in, couples that we know, and more. But there seems to be a tendency, a
pattern I’ve noticed. So, I know many couples where the husband ahead of time
before they even have kids or maybe early on is very intent on…
Thea: 07:26 Securing couple time.
Anne: 07:31 Securing couple time. Making sure that they don’t lose what it was they had before the kids came. And that sometimes takes the form of getting an au pair when the baby is an infant or other forms of, of child care, pushing the kids into preschool very early. I live in a county, as I think you do where attachment parenting is a big thing and attachment parenting often, what goes along with that, is co-sleeping. I know so many couples where the husband has really insisted that the kids go sleep in their own bed before the kids, as you point out even, or the mother is really ready for that, where they don’t feel that’s time. And what that ends up creating––or, like date nights, right? Date nights. One couple I knew, the man, the husband would, insist on childcare for the woman who was not working to have three days a week where she went and had her “me time” away from the kids so that she was fresh and ready for him. Right? That obviously achieves the opposite. At least it’s obvious to us. I don’t know why it’s not obvious to the men. Because what that ends up doing is, it’s contriving a situation where the man is getting involved in affairs he knows not of. Which is mothering. And he is not also acknowledging the fact that the woman is in that mother, mothering phase. That is a stage, a phase of their lives that IS.
Thea: 09:22 And just to like spell it
plainly, if a man can recognize that and honor it with true respect and
reverence of the stages that the woman goes through in becoming a mother, then
that is going to be the thread that makes that woman want that man all the
Anne: 09:45 Blossom. It’s going to
also make that woman, help that woman blossom. Right? If he, if he can embrace
all that she is in those, in that phase as well.
Thea: 09:55 Rather than sort of what
I’m seeing is––that idea of creating a forced structure is a contracting force
which makes the channel of communication and love shrink and get smaller.
Anne: 10:13 And trust. Right?
Thea: 10:16 And trust. And yeah.
Yeah. So it’s, it’s, it also, I mean, can really be synthesized, I think into,
is it a true meeting? Because when that true capacity for meeting what is
happening in the moment, when that capacity is shut off by more structure than
is needed––I mean, we have work, we have all these other things that give us a
rhythm or structure in life, but when you have your love lovingness become
structured, there’s a plane going by. When that becomes so structured, it, it
limits and cuts off that the meeting that, that spark that happens in the real
addressing and fulfilling what’s coming up in the moments, what’s needed. That
woman will love you all the more if you as a man can say, “Oh, I see you
just, you know, you need me to do this laundry, maybe so that, you know, you
can go put the baby down for a nap.” Or whatever. Instead of it being,
“I want, I want, I want.”
Anne: 11:33 Yes, exactly. Exactly.
it’s, it’s still important for the man to express, to very clearly express what
his needs are, his physical needs or whatever. But it’s very important for him
to have some realistic expectation of the space she’s going to be in for
several years, really. And you know, if, if, if I could only like share, impart
the secret to men, for them to realize that if they would just really honor and
respect and support the woman in the way that you were talking about, which
is––look, traditional gender roles are here for a reason. Men as provider,
especially in the early years when the children need their mother there most of
the time if not all the time. Right? So that she doesn’t have to go off to work
and you know, that that is critical. And she’s going to devote her time and
help this child, you know, establish this strong foundation, right? From which
to launch. The more she’s allowed to do that, the more independent the child
becomes as they grow, as they should, and the more freedom that couple has to
start exploring another phase of their marriage and relationship. At the same
time, we discussed that the importance of the woman being willing and open and
communicative about the fact that, “Hey babe, I’m nursing. I’ve got, I’ve
got a kid on my boob all the time. I’m sleeping with them. I don’t have a whole
lot of inner drive to share more of myself physically, but I will because
that’s part of our contract actually here too. And if you’re good with
quickies, we can do a whole lot of ’em. You know, let’s, let’s, let’s take a
few minutes here. Let’s take a few minutes there.”
Anne: 13:40 But I’m seeing a
tendency, with women who have tried that with their men in those early years,
for the men to be so disappointed that the woman is not fully present or
Thea: 13:56 Which then creates the
opposite habit or pattern between that channel of connection. It creates
resentment, it creates, well, what’s the point then? I’m not even going to try
to open up that much, because that’s not enough.
Anne: 14:11 Exactly! If she’s going
to disappoint him every time, why should she even try? Right? And so then it
just, it’s this snowballing effect, right? And then he pushes more and she
resists more, and…
Thea: 14:24 Then it’s 20 years later
and they get divorced.
Anne: 14:27 Yep. Yep. Right.
Thea: 14:29 So quickies are good.
Everyone’s happier if you’re having those connections. If, if people can set
down an idea, a rigid idea of an expectation and meet what is so that what can
be born of that can be nourishing and satisfying to both people.
Anne: 14:51 Exactly! Yes. So let’s
manage expectations. Let’s go back to the meeting table. And, and lay it out.
Right? And then see how best, given the capacity of both people involved, how
best we can keep this union going through each phase, healthily and happily.
Thea: 15:19 And change with it. Happy
and healthy. Totally.
Anne: 15:22 And flow, flow with it,
right? Flow with it and have faith that it will move through one phase into the
next. Right? And it’s all part of the process of relationship. Right? Growing
Thea: 15:41 There it is. Thanks Anne.
Take care. Bye.
Sisters Anne Mason and Thea Mason continue their discussion about men, women and relationships, male and female archetypes, and sex as a relationship indicator signal––asking the question: Has feminism made us happier?
Anne: 00:06 So we’re both outside
today for a variety of reasons and houses, houses full of kids and people. So
we, we talked about wanting to just start exploring–– I kind of like the way
you put it. I’d almost like you to open this up.
Thea: 00:27 Sure. we were sort of
going off of our last conversation where we were speaking about men and women
and the dynamics and roles. And I was just remarking that, you know, I wanted
to acknowledge that everything that we’re saying and all that we’re bringing to
this comes from our own experiences of life, our reflections and us waking up
and piercing through the, the veil of false beliefs that we had digested and
consumed from our culture, from society about what it is to be a woman what it
is to be in relationship with a man. And I think that goes where we’re going,
Anne: 01:13 Yes, yes, yes. And it was
important for me when you highlighted that, that we talk about that because
it’s, it’s just a process and a journey. I mean, not to get cliche, but this is
just all a process of discovery and examination. And that’s part of what this
dialogue is, right?
Thea: 01:41 Looking towards, you
know, understanding ourselves our life up to this point, our life from this
point forward to be able to move forward with more mindfulness, with real
clarity about our choices and the ways in which we choose to act and the roles
that we wish to inhabit. You know, with the real clarity of mind about it.
Anne: 02:07 Yes. as well as
identifying some things that help us, help guide us, help, help guide us in
teaching our children and helping our children understand the world and
understand relationships and understand each other.
Thea: 02:28 Yeah. I think if I can
just jump in with that, you know, I, it’s been extremely heightened for me
because I have three sons to raise into the world, and I think that has woken
me up to so many of the imbalances and false ideas that I was raised with. Uin
terms of looking ahead for my sons and what kind of world that they’re stepping
into, what kind of world they’re looking for a mate in and what kind of mate
they would be looking for.
Anne: 03:04 As well as, if I can
interrupt, based on another conversation we’ve had off-camera, as well as our
responsibility in shaping the world that they’re coming into. Right? And our
responsibility as women to help direct that. Right? And part of what sparked
this idea for this conversation was something I had shared to you, which I had
also posted in a comments, maybe about our last conversation about men and
women. And the title of that one–– “Let men shine.” Right? And much
of the crux of it, I felt was allowing men to be men, women to be women, not
expecting them to be other than they are. And to recognize and acknowledge the
strength in that, the beauty and strength in that rather than the lacking––that
the man doesn’t have enough of the woman in him or the woman doesn’t have
enough of the man. And I had reflected on, it’s funny what, whatever that blue
jay, is it a blue jay? A crow?
Thea: 04:30 Yeah, there’s crows.
There’s a bit of a battle with the parrots up in the tree up here.
Anne: 04:33 With the parrots, right.
Yeah. Tough life here in California. I was reflecting on the fact that I now
realize that when I was a kid and growing up as the young woman, just even in
listening to, reading stories, learning about days of old when men and women
were it was much more accepted, I suppose for want of a better word for women
and men to inhabit traditional roles and to approach an understanding of each
other through an acknowledgement of those traditional roles that we each
Anne: 05:26 And I remember kind of
feeling as if––and I, and I think because of the culture I was growing up in
and the way I was being taught by a feminist, feminist parents really––was
that, to kind of throw that out, to disregard that, that that was kind of an
archaic way of looking at things, a limited, archaic way of looking at things
almost. You know, stories where a woman is being taught the art of being a
woman by her mother. Being taught that men are like this and men need this and
this is how you can help the man come to understand this, etc. Etc. Without
directness kind of, you know a kind of subtle way of guiding.
Thea: 06:23 I would say, maybe, not,
not using the word “without directness,” but with an appreciation for
that which the man is and that which the man provides and for the acceptance of
it. So it’s able to be subtle without it being sticky, right?
Anne: 06:45 Yes. Or Yes. Heavy
handed. Because, so that we can still dance with each other, acknowledging
these differences, but not throwing it in each other’s faces because that kind
of ruins the mystery of it. Right?
Thea: 07:02 Mmhm. So, I was just
thinking that this is sort of the, what we had touched upon when we were
discussing this beforehand that it’s like we’re in a world where nobody’s happy
in the role that they’re allowed to be in. And there’s this sort of constant,
seeming battle in, in the broader culture of the way women feel men are or
should be or aren’t, or the way that they’re not allowing a woman to be
recognized or given due credit for. Or, you know, I’m being a little bit too
vague, but, but because, because of this, what, what, what the impulse of
feminism, like there was a need for women to be able to step out of being
locked into a particular role for sure.
Anne: 08:02 Or being suppressed,
right. You know, supressed.
Thea: 08:05 Not acknowledge or, you
know, not glorified, not being recognized. You know, and appreciated properly.
Maybe. I’m not sure, but it seems like everything got thrown out instead of
finding––how can I be then appreciated and loved and cherished, I mean
cherished. How can we cherish one another for the work that we do because we do
different work, and we can’t do the same because what’s happening right is, is
in this world where we’re, it’s like everything’s about trying to do the same
work. For a man to show “I can mother just as well as a mother” or a
mother to be just as much of a father and no one’s really pleased, it seems. Is
anyone more happy with this sort of throwing out the archetypes? You know? I
guess what I would try to say is it seems to be, we need to be able to
recognize it’s an archetype. That it’s not something you’re limited by. We’re not
only that. But that is one in which as a woman I can inhabit when I’m with the
man. When I’m not with the man, I don’t get to only be that archetype, I have
to do this, this, this and this and vice versa. But it’s, so it’s like, instead
of throwing out the archetype entirely, let’s just recognize we don’t have to
be stuck in one. Yes. But we can be in one and it can be beautiful and freeing
and make us all happier if we’re meeting each other in that archetypal way.
Anne: 09:46 Yes. We all in different
capacities throughout our lives inhabit different roles. Just even from the
more basic perspective of looking at children. We’ve talked a lot about this
and, and the different pedagogies and and, and why it’s important for children
to spend time with youngers and olders so that they can inhabit more than one
role. Right? They can be the older and the teacher. They can also be the
younger and the not knowing and the learner and that humbles them a bit.
Thea: 10:21 And makes them secure,
also being able to be secure when you’re able to be in different roles and be
held by those in the other roles.
Anne: 10:31 Yes. Right, right. And,
and so by the same token, if we can make it more okay to inhabit the archetype
of man and woman while we are in that relationship, that keeps things, um to me
it seems like it’s…I mean, we’ve worked through this for thousands and
thousands and thousands of years. Like let’s not throw the baby out with the
bath water, right? We’ve established some wonderful dynamics and a dance and a
rhythm that works pretty well. A distribution of labor, if you will, you know,
in the world. And that does not mean that when we are not inhabiting, that does
not mean that when we’re not in that dynamic that we can’t also take on, step
in, step in for each other. Right? And experience that, exercise, that and add
another string to our bow. Right? So yeah, that’s where I see the issue and,
and where, where are we on time?
Thea: 12:01 We’re good. We’ve got
another 10 minutes. So I’m not sure what we’ve said yet all the way. We’ve kind
of laid a broad groundwork. But I guess the question that comes out of this,
this dialogue really that I, I’ve been thinking about is, are we happier? Are
people happier? Are marriages better? Are relationships better? Are, you know,
are families healthier and happier? Are kids healthier and happier with this,
with this movement that we have been in the last 40 years, you know, 50? What
year is it? Um you know, what’s the outcome? Where have we gotten to? And from
my limited perspective, which I grant is limited, I see that often,
relationships fail. Often, there’s this, this struggle that isn’t able to be
resolved and worked with. And then, you know, when looking at marriages, it
takes a whole lot of courage and commitment for people to really make something
continually work and grow and change with the continuous growth and change of
each individual. Most often what I’m witnessing is a bitterness after 20 years.
Anne: 13:30 A resentment I’m seeing
that we witnessed in our parent’s marriage. Right? as far more resentment than
gratitude. And you and I have had the experience really throughout you know, we
both, we lost our parents quite some time ago. And so that’s given us an
opportunity to have perspective and reflect in a way that one doesn’t have,
when the parents are still around and still in that dynamic. And we recognize
really what an amazing we had. And yet their marriage was so riddled with
strife and resentment. There was a lot of resentment on Mom’s part toward Dad.
And, and so we’ve talked a little bit about this and so many friends I know
and, and past relationships I’ve had too, right? I mean, I’m almost 50 years
old, right? It’s taken me this long to even be able to articulate what we’ve
just talked about, about: Wait a minute! Traditional roles, men and women’s
traditional roles, there’s some merit to this and, and a relationship, I don’t
care how you cut it, does not work with blame and resentments at the heart of
it. And it takes two, absolutely two, and and they, they do need to support
each other, respect each other, support each other. And want the best for each
other. Right? because without that, I know Jordan Peterson has articulated this
and many others, but it’s so obvious! Without both people being lifted up, the
whole union falls apart and it gets no one anywhere.
Thea: 15:33 And it may fall apart
really slowly ,like a slow demise. And the thing that I think I mean just on
that, and then I have this other thought I want to go back to is, you know, and
if there are children in that relationship, that are out of that union and the
demise is slow and steady and unspoken, that for me, I feel like––of course
from my own experience as a child in our family and then my own situation for
my children––that’s what they’re ingesting, of how relationship is. And you
know, if we want to free our children to, to cultivate something more positive
and true, we have to have the courage to name our problems, to name our
responsibility within those problems.
Thea: 16:38 And that just leads me
to––in a marriage, in a relationship, if you’re not having sex, then there’s a
problem. And that is like a major signal, right? And it doesn’t mean if you’re
having sex, everything’s good either. But if you’re not having sex, then there
is a big channel of communication that is not happening, which is what makes
you be in a relationship as with a mate, you know? And if that’s not there, it
takes courage and honesty to go there and discover why is it? You know, when I
think about our dad, as great as he was, there was obviously something missing
in the way he was seeing our mom and the way she was able to see him so they
could reflect back to each other what was beautiful, which would make them want
to be in union. Right? Because we want to be, you know, we want to be getting
Anne: 17:36 Yes, yes. I think that is
Thea: 17:40 Get it? It’s a key.
Anne: 17:46 Well, no, I mean, and,
and so, and now what are we, I still, because my eyes are so bad, I can’t see
how much more time?
Thea: 17:52 We have five more
Anne: 17:52 Okay. So just, just to
start with this will––this will be continued later. But yes. It’s a big issue.
It’s a big issue. We, we, you know, so many friends, so many, so many couples
in really miserable situations and the sex, making love, that physical
connection, it does reflect on the health of the relationship. It’s also the
biggest signal to say stop, take a look at each other and have a very open and
honest conversation. Because you cannot keep going on like that and allowing
this chasm to get wider and wider. It’s not gonna move toward anything healthy
that I can imagine in a marriage. And so you have to figure out why that is.
You have to ask for what you need, I suppose, but you have to also equally, if
not more, respect what it is that other person is also able and willing in that
moment to give. And figure out then how to make it work between those two.
Thea: 19:34 And how to really truly
appreciate that which is given, right? That, which is offered and that––but
this is such a huge conversation and subject matter really. But in thinking of
families and parents, my goodness, you know, when, when children are young,
it’s like near impossible to, to have as a, as a mother, you don’t have much force
for being sexual when they’re young, right? You’re, you’re kind of maxed out.
Anne: 20:06 You don’t have a lot of
extra. It’s true. And so you may not be able to be as present as, as you might
have been earlier or later.
Thea: 20:18 Or later. And the thing I
guess I wanted to say with that is, you know, that’s a part where it makes me
think that so much of what we’re, we’ve been fed through media in various forms
has altered people’s real ability to meet what is before them. You know, life
is not a 30 minute sitcom.
Anne: 20:42 Nor is it a a porn flick.
Thea: 20:47 Right. And so it’s like,
it’s not going to be neatly wrapped up in one, one idea or another. And if we
can in relationship be true enough with ourselves to meet the person in front
of us, which means we cannot be caught in our own ideas of what reality is
supposed to be. Right? So if we can meet what’s really there, then real
relationship can happen. And real relating can happen. I like the term and I
know it’s not one, but “relationing.” Like it’s a little bit outside
of relating and it’s not relationship, but it is the practice of being in
relationship to the relationship itself.
Anne: 21:34 Being in relationship to
the relationship itself. Yes. But I think I also get from it: Relationing.
Really, it is relating. Yes. But it is meeting each other, seeing each other as
clearly as we can. I mean, yeah, we’ve got lots of filters that we have to work
through, but as clearly as we can and accept––after we establish that each
person actually wants to be there––to then accept what it is each one is able
to bring to it and be grateful for that. Yeah. And work together to figure out how
it then can form the relate the, the, the relationing, right? So yeah, I mean I
think we can end it there right. For now. And, and keep working with this,
because men and women both need to work on that. Right? yeah. We need to work
on getting through those oftentimes where we’re, we’re not quite in the same…
Thea: 23:01 Groove?
Anne: 23:01 Same groove. But both
parties are willing to still meet there despite how they’re feeling or that one
doesn’t feel that they’re getting as much from the other as they want, but
they’re still willing to do it because they care so much about the relationship
and each other. Then the focus on being grateful for what that is rather than
focusing on what it is not, will eventually get us to those glorious moments
when we meet perfectly and synchronously and harmoniously. And I think that the
more we do that and establish trust with each other, the more frequent those
moments occur. Yeah. Because it is true relationing then.
Thea: 23:55 Truly beautiful. I know.
There’s so much more to say, but this was wonderful for a quick one, touch-in.
Anne: 24:03 Yeah. Another, another
quick one. Okay. All right. What’d you say?
Thea: 24:08 A quickie if you will.
Anne: 24:14 A quickie. There are many
kinds of quickies, and here is hopefully one of them. Hang on a sec and I’ll
My sister Thea Mason and I discuss the inherent and glorious differences between men and women, and how reverence for each other’s strengths and ways of being allows each one of us to reach our fullest potential––individually and as part of the whole.
Anne: 00:00 Record to the cloud. Hi
Thea: 00:02 Hello, Anne. Good to see
Anne: 00:06 And you. So, well, let’s
be real here. We’ve had a lot going on in our lives. We both have. And are a
bit distracted and there’s just, there’s a lot swirling and swimming, and we
weren’t sure what we were gonna talk about here. There’s a lot we could get
into. And we chatted some before we started recording and got to our fav, one
of our favorite subjects, which is men, right? Which is men. And decided to
just start to touch on this. We’ll try to make this one quite a short one and
just, just get a taste right now and see where this leads us. But we talked, we
talked, first of all about a comment thread that we were having on online where
somebody, a friend of ours, was mentioning something about the length of these
podcasts. And I made reference to how kind of windy we get in our conversations
as women do, versus men who might be a bit more linear in the conversation. And
I made some mention about, you know, that’s, that’s what we need men for to
kind of, as you put it, bring it to the point. Right?
Anne: 01:38 And, and so we started
talking about that, that the, the balance between men and women, the, the fact
that women and men need each other to be, and to become, in the way––as my
husband had articulated it recently––you can’t, did he say, “You can’t see
the moon without the sun.” Right?
Thea: 02:15 Right. Precisely. Well,
I’ll take it for a second. If that’s all right? It just sparked just that
comment sparked a little bit for me. Being a pretty strong willed, strong and
forceful woman myself in the world. You know, there’s, there’s something I
think in our culture that I, I hear, you know, I see things, women posting,
things about, you know, it’s not about finding your…the right knight or be
your own knight or be, which is of course, true. Be your own best self. Become
your own most fierce, compassionate, beautiful being you can be.
Thea: 03:08 But I still want to find
that most beautiful and compassionate manly mirror to myself. And it doesn’t,
that does not negate me becoming my best self, to find and look for that noble
man who can stand strong and shine his bright sunshine into my moonshine.
Anne: 03:33 Yes! And to, to add to
what you were saying like, okay, right. The spirit, we get the spirit of like,
yeah, “Be your own knight.” Right? But what I think it’s meaning is
find your own strength, right? To operate from. Don’t use someone else’s
strength to fill that which you can develop in yourself. But…
Thea: 04:01 And that goes for men and
women both because…no one’s happy that way.
Anne: 04:05 It goes for people,
right? Right. Then that’s not balanced. But men and women are inherently
different. The Sun is not the Moon.
Thea: 04:19 And the sun is constantly
whole and bright. No matter if we see it or not.
Anne: 04:27 And the moon goes through
her stages and the moon retreats to her inner world, she shows only parts of
herself, right? At times. And then there are times, and as you pointed out
there, there is a rhythm there. It is cyclical. She comes around and shows her
full self, right? And meets him fully in that way. But the only way she can
meet him fully is to be allowed to go inside, and go down her own paths of
doing and being, which is not the sun’s way. But at the same time, the sun,
like you pointed out, yes, he goes behind the clouds sometimes. Right? But he
needs those, you know, he does it in a different way. I mean, it’s, that’s an
external retreat rather than internal retreat. He’s still, he’s still there,
that bright sun all the time and he can’t be expected to travel, to travel, to traverse
those realms with her.
Anne: 05:53 She can’t expect that of
him. She can’t expect him to…
Thea: 05:58 Be different than he is?
Anne: 06:00 Yeah! And! She must––in
the way he must allow her to do her thing and travel her path, and also to
cherish that path that she travels and regard it and honor it––she must do the
same for him. While he shines bright and strong no matter what’s going on. That
is, that is beautiful. And that is something to revere and give him credit for
or whatever. Right? Go ahead.
Thea: 06:43 Well, and it’s something,
it’s something that can be counted upon. You know, in saying, you know, we
can’t expect the sun to, to act differently than the nature of the sun. And we
can’t ask the moon to really behave differently than the nature of the moon.
And when we do that, ask that, so being clear as man and woman, when we’re asking
man and woman to behave differently than they inherently are given the rhythm
of behaving, something becomes really distorted and lost and out of orbit in
terms of the way they get to support one another and meet one another and all
that they hold between their two spheres. You know, all of this world of
reality that functions between the dynamic of man and woman or sun and moon,
you know, that becomes distorted if these dynamics are distorted as well. And
one of the thoughts I’ve had in thinking of the sun, you know, shining
bright––on some days, it’s so piercingly bright and hot that you have to find
shade. You need to take cover and adjust how you meet it, how, what, what of
the sun can you take in today? You know? And some days you can take all of the
sun and bask in it, you know, and bathe in it in all of its glory.
Thea: 08:12 And sometimes you can’t! And sometimes you need to create your own shade blanket because it’s too fierce or it’s, you know not soft enough. And that doesn’t mean that the sun doesn’t know how to go behind the clouds. Sometimes, you know, sometimes to give a little cover from its intensity or its piercing one-pointedness. Sometimes it has to become a little diffused, but that’s not constant. You know, it has to be able to move. I’m getting a little bit sideways, except I think it’s really just how can we as women, how can we honor that space of the sun? How can we honor that space of the man so that, that sun and that man can honor the space of the moon and the woman? That’s where it has to come from.
Anne: 09:07 Absolutely. And we’ll,
we’ll probably decide to have a longer, more material conversation about that.
But thoughts occurred to me like, you know, w we can’t we can’t expect them
to––I mean, there’s the comics, the standup comics make all the jokes about
this and everything––but we can’t expect them to be women. We can’t expect to
have the same conversations that we have with our women friends. We can’t
expect them to read us the way our female friends read us. We can’t expect them
to speak our language. We can expect them to try to read it and decipher it
best they can. But, you know, and I think of it like, you know, just, you know,
the way we, we women process things the way we need to understand the world. I
think we, you know, at least my own experience is, as I’ve gotten older, of
course I’ve always had my, my great female girlfriends, but as I’ve gotten
older, I’ve been able to recognize the depth and strength of and sacredness of
those relationships separate than my male relationships. Equally significant.
Right? but I’ve been able to, as I’ve gotten older, and maybe it’s, it’s kind
of as one becomes more whole and is looking less to other people in the world
to fulfill something in them. We’re able to regard, I’m sorry, let me just
pause this for one moment. Okay. so, I sure think it’s, it’s important to
recognize that those relationships are very different. They are just as
important, but neither is more important. And they each have their time and
Thea: 11:34 Absolutely.
Anne: 11:36 And I had made a joke. Well, I, I’d responded to that comment where I’d said, you know, I think women, women need to get rid of the attitude and get back to gratitude a little bit in terms of the men bashing because the comment, yeah, the comment was “Wow. Women who like men?” Have I even talked about this in our recording? But like talking about “Women, women who like men? Wow. Can you believe that?” And I was saying that, you know, I’m, I’m in all seriousness, I’m a little sick of the men bashing. It’s just, you know, I have a son!
Thea: 12:15 I have three! Yeah.
Anne: 12:18 Exactly. And I don’t want
to hear this right? We can hold people accountable without tearing them down.
Thea: 12:32 And if we don’t hold
people accountable in a respectful way, we’re not going to get anything we
Anne: 12:40 And that’s the other thing I pointed out, which is how really just nonsensical and impractical it is. It’s like a relationship between a man and a woman, or really a relationship between anyone. Right? Unless you are planning to leave the relationship, then coming at it with blame and accusation gets us nowhere. The only thing that does get us somewhere is to find more and more effective ways of communicating our needs, our dissatisfactions, whatever it is, but also in a bolstering, supportive way and manner that allows that other person to see that you can see their best selves, so that they can rise to their best selves. And you know, one of the critical components to that is to allow that which they are to be strong and work with that. So.
Thea: 13:44 Because we can’t, because
we can’t, I mean in my observations of my life and through friends, if we don’t
ask for what we’re looking for or what we need and find ways towards building
that, there’s, there’s no one to blame but ourselves. But we can, but we can
guide those things. I mean, when you have a relationship that’s growing
together, you know, you have to know when you have to put your oar in and you
have to redirect something because it’s important.
Thea: 14:25 And if it’s not important, don’t keep going along, building resentment about it quietly until you explode and burn the whole thing to the ground. You know, if we’re not each from each side, man and woman, if you’re not investing in one another towards building a house together, that is one of both liking it, you know, then it’s like then you get angry and that’s what it seems like our culture is so much in, it’s like, how do we build the house together. It’s a, it’s been this building, building, building of quiet anger that’s now coming out with, you know, a fierce, irrational lashing. And burning it all to the ground when the reality is, and I think this hearkens back to our first conversation we recorded, women are the stewards of humankind, of, of humanity. And we are raising these boys to become men. Whose job is it? It’s ours as well as the fathers, but just simply out of biology, the fathers aren’t always around. And so if the woman is the one who’s in charge of that, if my young men grow up and they are not good men, that’s on me.
Anne: 15:45 Absolutely! I, can I,
there’s something in this to flesh out later, but something that I’ve said long
Thea: 16:04 Sorry, I’ll turn my timer
off again. So sorry.
Anne: 16:06 Okay. It’s your bread timer. Okay. Hold on. Like the typical woman you are. Let me pause the recording…Okay. So Thea is folding her dough right now while she, while she podcasts here. Someone I, I used to know who is no longer with us, but used to say you can get anything done in this world as long as you don’t take credit for it. Right? And that has stuck with me. And I have said since then that I feel that part of the problem between men and women is this newer need for women to get credit for the work they do. And which maybe is why there’s this pursuit of recognition in the field of men, in the realm of men. Because men are more out here, external, the work they do.
Thea: 17:09 Look at the sun!
Anne: 17:11 Exactly. The work they do
is more measurable and quantifiable. Whereas the work we do, again like the
moon, the inner work, but the inner work on, on the level of family, of
children, of parenting, of being a wife to a husband, to being a woman, a
supportive woman to a man and helping him navigate and maneuver in the world.
We sometimes do that quietly behind the scenes. We are just as responsible for,
for the result of it. Right? But we don’t, I feel it’s important that women
remember that we don’t we don’t actually need the, the worldly recognition to
that degree ’cause we know it. So anyway that’s so that’s all for another
conversation. Let’s try to keep these a little shorter. This is food for
thought for everyone. You know, I’d love it if people would chime in and, and
bounce these ideas.
Thea: 18:13 Share their thoughts and
Anne: 18:13 ‘Cause There’s something,
there’s something to this. So once again, thanks, Thea. We’ll do this again
soon and have fun with the bread.
Thea: 18:23 Thanks very much.
Anne: 18:23 And hang on, let me just,
let me end the recording and we’ll talk for a sec. Stop.
My sister Thea Mason and I discuss material examples of Benign Neglect––both in parenting and in relationships, with others and with oneself––which demonstrate respect and cultivate resilience. Which leads to empowerment.
Anne: 00:01 Okay. Hi, Thea.
Thea: 00:03 Hi there, Anne. Good to
Anne: 00:06 Good to see you too. So
starting this again. So this conversation we’re gonna talk, going to follow on
last week’s conversation, which was about Benign Neglect as an approach to
parenting, as an approach to all of our relationships, in order to encourage
everyone to be resilient, right,? To, to help cultivate resilience, to help us
grow our resilience. So, and so we want to talk about some material examples of
that, both in parenting and in relationships. And I’m going to let you start
Thea: 00:52 So last conversation we
had touched on a very early stage of development physically for a young child,
being that they pushed up onto their hands and knees in the pursuit of movement
and crawling and independence. And we were discussing a little…
Anne: 01:12 Wait, wait. Can I just
interrupt? And, and that most parents know instinctively to not assist that,
because it’s so critical in them exercising those muscles in order to be able
to do that. Because if we do it for them, they won’t exercise those muscles.
Thea: 01:32 Right. I mean, and you
have pictures of that in all of nature, right? I mean, one most everyone is
familiar with is the caterpillar pushing, struggling out of the Chrysalis or it
a chick hatching out. So if you, if you disturb that process, they are weakened
and therefore cannot actually survive. So that’s a little, you know, picture.
And as human beings, we have so many more varied and complex stages of these
opportunities of the possibility to build resilience or to be hindered and
crippled, essentially, for the way we meet the world. And so we were talking
about, you know, some, some natural things that occur when children are young.
And some of the things we were discussing, and from my experience and I’m sure
yours in parenting, you know, as children start to develop freedom and then
they want to climb the tree and they want to get to that branch. And sometimes
as parents we want to support them and be there to help assist them into those
places. And I think through learning we find that if you are to assist past a
point where someone is ready to carry themselves, you’re actually putting them
in danger because a child will only climb to that which they can climb down
from and get down from. Right? because they know they made it up, they can make
it down. And if you’ve put someone there without their own striving and faith
in their own ability, then there’s a fear lock. Right? And then they cannot
quite do it. So that was one other example. I don’t know if you want to speak
to that or…
Anne: 03:21 No, I mean I think that’s
a perfect example. And, and the word that came to mind was, if we put people
somewhere prematurely, right? They, they really have to get there themselves in
order to then be able to jump to the next, and the next, and the next, I
think.To build the foundation. Right?
Thea: 03:43 Absolutely. And another
place that I see that in a really practical way out of the work I do and, and
my history with my children is, is a swing. Moving on a swing takes its own
impulse and will, or rhythmic movement of pushing and pulling oneself where
they want to go. So those were just two very tangible, in terms of the
development of the human being in pursuit of freedom and fun.
Anne: 04:18 And, you know, and, and,
and another one that just occurred to me I remember when we’d go to the beach
together when our kids were younger and I would be like, oh, I forgot the
shovel, or I forgot the buckets and shovels. And you said, here are their
shovels, right? And I adopted that approach more across the board. Less props,
less props, less toys, less things. And out of that, I would see wonderful
projects being conceived and dams being built and holes being dug and in, in,
in, in wonderful ways. Right? And, and doing that more and more reinforces that
with our kids.
Thea: 05:06 And builds, and also
builds a space of more ease as a parent. You know, I mean, that’s the other
part that it doesn’t have to be so busy or fraught with details. And can be a
little bit more pleasant.
Anne: 05:25 Well, and you’re, you’re
much more fluid when you are living and approaching everything a bit more
simply. You don’t need so much. Right?
Thea: 05:34 Very true. And and I will
take that just into another stage of development when it moves from the
physical with our children to, you know, as from my experience as my children
have gone into adolescence and the different emotional states that are coming
up, and the discomfort that comes up. And I had a very clear experience, and I
can recall the memory moments very clearly where my, my child was
uncomfortable, struggling in some pain emotionally about something that was
emerging for himself. And I can very clearly see the tactic he was working to
employ was to bait me to create a situation of conflict, a drama in some sort
to bait me into that, to engage with him, to give him a channel to release his
frustration inappropriately. To release it towards me so he could be distracted
from actually stepping through his own work. And I remember seeing it so
clearly and instead of taking the bait, which I’m sure I have at times, but in
that moment really clearly, distinctly saying, “oh, you’re having a hard
time, huh?” So that stopped it.
Anne: 07:12 But, but it’s also, it’s
also acknowledging it, right? It’s not ignoring it. So it is being, it’s being
supportive, and it is seeing, regarding.
Thea: 07:22 And it gives a window.
So, “You’re having a hard time” and he then could have the window to
say, “Yeah, I am.” And I could say, “Do you want to talk about
it?” So it’s really about learning how to have a healthy relationship with
the things that come up, a relationship with oneself to be able to name and
identify when something is presenting itself for us to look at.
Anne: 07:52 Yes. When something is
troubling us. Um I had mentioned to you previously about something with my,
with one of my kids. She, she has a tendency to come into the room when she’s
upset. Again, she’s coming to an age where it’s beyond the physical, it’s
emotional, it’s settling into this, this world and some of its challenges,
right? Of being. ‘Cause They’re not just in this oneness of childhood all the
time. Right? And Hmmph!” You know a poutiness, throwing oneself on the
couch maybe and turning her head away from me. Right? And sometimes I will
actually say nothing. If it goes on, I will do what you had mentioned, which is
“What’s going on?” So acknowledging that I see that there’s something
going on, but refraining from, “Oh, what’s wrong? Are you upset?”
Because I feel that indulging that leads to what I see among peers. And I would
say women more than men for one reason or another.
Thea: 09:16 Or at least from your
Anne: 09:17 Okay. From my
perspective, I have noticed, and maybe it’s because I have more female friends.
Right? But, but I’ve noticed a tendency for people to feel slighted, hurt,
something, by me. And rather than come to me and talk to me about it or express
that––to wait for me to figure that out, whether it’s through their behavior or
their silence. And I think when I was younger, I might have, I feel like it’s,
“taken the bait” on that. These days I’m much less inclined to want
to get drawn into that at all. Where I feel I’m, I’m asking you, I’m respecting
you enough to let me know if there’s something bothering you. If there is, I will
do everything in my power to address it. If you can’t even take the
responsibility to, to let me know, then I’m not going to be your parent and
draw it out of you. Right?
Thea: 10:29 Right. And there, there
are so many layers within that. Yeah. And, and it is, it’s, it’s an interesting
thing. We’ve spoken about that, you know, finding that balance of being, being
sensitive and compassionate to people in a struggle. And also not, not
continuing their stuck dynamic by engaging into that. Right? Because, because
that’s what we all have, these ways of being that have worked for us out of some
difficult situation in our past, our becoming an adult. And if those ways of
functioning that may truly be limiting to how we relate with ourselves and the
world, if they have still gotten what we want, we’re not going to change. I
mean, and that’s, and I have a very good friend, I remember talking about his
struggles with parenting. And I remember saying that, well, if there’s, if your
children are still getting what they want through their behavior, they’re not
going to change. We’re pretty simple creatures. Right? If we’re still getting
our basic comfort met our basic needs met, we’re not going to change. You know,
so that ties in with that in terms of that dynamic with friends, you know, if
we’re still getting the response we need, we’re still getting that sort of
feeding of attention and energy, which I think gets, can get really distorted.
Anne: 12:13 Absolutely. It’s, it, it
can become codependent. It can just perpetuate a dysfunctionality. Forever and
ever and ever really. And when we had talked about this earlier too, you used
the word enabling. We don’t want to enable patterns and ways of being in our
children or our friends or our partners or ourselves, which keep us limited.
Right? And, and not as empowered. Because how empowering is it to feel free and
confident enough to, when something that someone has done that you care to remain
in a relationship with, bothers you enough to impact you, to be able to then
say, “Hey, you pissed me off. You upset me. You hurt me.”
Thea: 13:16 Or I was really hurt when
you did this. You know, that’s that language again.
Anne: 13:24 Totally. I hate that I
even said that ’cause I, I’m so, I’m, I’m usually very clear about the fact
that largely it’s, it’s our choice to feel hurt or not or you know…
Thea: 13:42 Often it is. And I think
something we’ve talked about before, when I have had a, an experience of being
hurt by something someone has done, if I address it and speak to them, it is
often the case that they just hadn’t even realized it. Right? That it wasn’t a
true intention to hurt. It was my feeling of being hurt, you know? So what
happens, this going along with that, that picture that we give each other
opportunities to grow and expand our, our purview of, of perceiving, if that
makes sense. When people give us feedback I have a friend right now who, you
know, I’m trying to find my way. They’re in, they’re in a difficult time and
I’m trying to find the way to be supportive and compassionate in a way that
feels really true and sincere for me. And they have expressed to me, “You
know, I felt sort of hurt by this.” So I know that by them giving me that
information, and now I get to work with playing with––What’s the right dynamic
to be a supportive friend here, because I don’t want to take it on, but I also
want to make sure they do know I’m here for them.
Anne: 15:12 Right. Again, you want to
help draw them out of patterns that they may be also stuck in as we all get in.
Um but at the same time, supportive. It’s a balance. Uh just to hit another
couple material examples before we have to end. We talked about one one of mine
was oh well, well one was when the kids say “I’m bored,” right? They
go through these developmental stages where that is, is a, a running theme, you
know. They’ve come to awareness and consciousness that they are not just, again
in the oneness as much and able to just move from one thing to another
seamlessly. They actually now are having to think about what it is I want to
do. I am…
Thea: 16:10 They’re separate a little
Anne: 16:12 Yeah. And so the, we both
I think have a similar approach with that, which is “How lucky for
Thea: 16:20 “How fortunate you
are to be bored right now.”
Anne: 16:23 “I don’t have the
luxury of being bored. So work with that and see what comes of that.”
Right? And invariably something wonderful will. Or not.
Thea: 16:34 Or not. You know, I think
there’s something that’s really to be said for just a question in those moments
rather than a gesture of wanting to, to fix. ‘Cause Of course we want to see
our kids happy. Of course we want to see them thriving. But this goes to the
being comfortable in the discomfort. But when, when a child says “I’m
bored,” you could simply say, “Tell me about it. What’s that
like?” I mean age appropriate, let’s say, or “Oh, how so?” And
you know, it gives them a moment to bring forth, what’s their mind’s state. And
then they realize, “Oh, I’m actually not bored,” or “Telling you
about it would be really boring, so I’m outta here.”
Anne: 17:22 More likely. Right? Or,
or you know, of course another tactic is, “You’re bored, there’s some
clothes to fold over there. The kitchen needs cleaning,” and zoom, they
are out the door. Right? Figure out something. But not to keep harping on this
one, but, there’s a recent thing that happened. It was a few days ago, I think,
you know, my son is a voracious reader and he gets lost in his books and and if
he’s on one series or another, it can just be constant. And he had not picked
up the book from the library that he had reserved. He had finished the other
book and just, he’s all, you know, cranky and, and said something like,
“I’m bored,” you know, “There’s nothing to do,” you know,
and, and yeah, same tactic,”Oh, well,” you know. And out of that,
that day, I remember, came two poems. He, he, he found his journal and he wrote
a poem and a haiku. Right? That really stuck with me like, “Good. You have
to be bored.”
Thea: 18:24 Yeah. To create. Out of
suffering is born creation. Really. Sometimes at least. And was there another
point we were going to make?
Anne: 18:38 Well, well if you have
another one and I’m looking at a time, we’re trying to keep this nice and
short. One was about you know, I’d, I had said to you, I said, “I don’t
give handouts.” Right? I don’t mean, I don’t mean when I say that honestly
I have given money. I used to give money all the time in the street. I’m not
even talking about that. I do that much less. Occasionally I do when I’m
struck. Right? But more friends and family members, right? Who I will see a
pattern with, of asking for, for money, you know, material support. Repeatedly.
Right? It’s something that I am not inclined to do unless there is a very good
reason for me to believe that this is actually going to help them on their way,
and it’s not going to be a crutch to keep them stuck in their stuckness. And
you had made a point you had said, well…
Thea: 19:51 I had said, you know, I
find you to be quite generous with your time and your resources in terms of
just wanting to put them into good use and movement. And I think what it drew
forth in our conversation was there is, you know, there is a time for straight
generosity. I mean, just out of the goodness of one’s being to see someone who
has no comfort, to give comfort, right? That that is, that’s a reasonable
thing. And then when you have people that you’re in relationship with that,
that necessitates a different holding of how we share our resources of time,
energy, money, whatever you want to say. And I think what we identified was,
when there is striving, and an energy of movement and growth within someone who
is in a hard place. When that striping is there. I mean, we could talk about
that, as they’re already building a momentum around themselves by the effort
itself, whatever that is. That is where it is much simpler to give support
because it’s taken up, and it is in movement already. A.
Anne: 21:07 And it is utilized. We
talked about, I put it as if someone is able to receive the gift productively,
I want to give and give and give as much as I can. And am grateful to
participate in that person’s…
Thea: 21:30 Development, freedom,
Anne: 21:31 Absolutely. But I am but,
but on the contrary when someone repeatedly is…Sorry I, I don’t want to get
too much into it right now, but…
Thea: 21:50 Well, I think what that
is, is there’s a difference in when it goes into something and it starts to––I,
I can see it in my mind––it moves and then there is something that has a
stuckness. So this is a little bit of a distinguishing between the practices of
parenting and what we’re trying to do with our children with Benign Neglect. To
build resilience means when you are in a stuck place, you have the capacity to
take whatever you can get your hands on to help you build that resilience
towards something better, you know, to get out of your own suffering. And when
you don’t have that faith in yourself, you don’t have that practice of taking a
situation that’s difficult, even with the generosity of others, you don’t have
your feet to stand on, to step to another level of being in yourself.
Anne: 22:54 Yes. Yes. And that wraps,
let’s wrap it up because that ties all the way back to the beginning, which is
why it is critical with our children that we allow them to develop that faith
in themselves, because if they don’t, every step we take in our lives moves us
in one direction or another, each step. Right? And so if they don’t have that
faith from the beginning or you know, and of course we can get it and learn it
and be challenged with very trying situations. But if it keeps being reinforced
that they get rescued out of whatever situation it is and don’t ever develop
that muscle and really that faith in themselves, then gosh, at 50 years old, at
60 years old, they still will not be able to use that, those generous gifts
from others to really make it on their own because they will never found that
faith in themselves.
Thea: 23:57 And I would, you know,
make it on their own. Yes. But I would even say, I mean, what are each of us
here for? You know, what I hold, anyway, is that for each of us to uncover what
it is that we have within our being’s destiny, to bring to the world, to work
with in the world and to leave into the world. And if I as a person am robbed
of my own struggle to discover what it is I’m here to bring to the world, then
it’s a disservice to myself and to humanity, all of life, you know, on that
light note. But that’s, that’s how I see it, you know, because yes, we can go
forth even when we’re handicapped and we can find the tools and build the
muscle with right opportunity. I mean I think each of us has found the same
sort of challenges come our way until we find a new way to meet them. And so it
does come, there is a wisdom in all of creation to bring it to us.
Anne: 25:12 Yes! We don’t miss our,
yeah, the opportunities continue to circle around to us throughout our lives,
right? But we need to be able to find that faith in ourselves one way or
another and find our path.
Thea: 25:33 Yes. And as parents, you
know, if we can hold that task with reverence and sincerity and meaning, like,
and real respect for how powerful this work is, you know, to know how important
that work is. To go forth into it. So, you know, all of that for all of us in
these relationships with our children, with each other to be able to build more
freedom for each other through–don’t want to say mindful, but it is
mindful–through really holding respect for one another. I think that’s
ultimately what it comes down to in a way.
Anne: 26:22 I think you are right,
because having true respect for someone–again, we’ve touched on this–does
also follow that we have the confidence in them, in their capacity, in their
largeness and capacity. So every time we hold back from fixing or lifting them
before they’re ready, we are, we are demonstrating a deep respect for our
children, for our partners, for our friends.
My sister Thea Mason and I discuss the concept of benign neglect in parenting, as well as in all our relationships, to help everyone build the necessary resilience to face life’s challenges.
Anne: 00:02 Hi Thea!
Thea: 00:03 Hi, Anne!
Anne: 00:03 So today we’re going to
talk about resilience. And we come to this, I come to this partly because I
have been seeing an overemphasis I think on people’s victimization in this
culture, in this society, in, throughout our history on too much emphasis in my
opinion on victim hood and identifying with our victimhood rather than
identifying with our strengths and our empowerment. And we won’t get too into
this, but the last conversation we had was…we talked about empowerment. What
is empowerment? And you pointed out that this word has been, it’s thrown around
a lot and it’s used a lot, but I think we need to get clear about what is
empowerment and what is, what is resilience? How do we become resilient? How do
we remain resilient to face the challenges that inevitably we face throughout
Thea: 01:31 And one of the colorings
I think that we had spoken about in regards to the dynamic of victimhood is
this the functioning of victim mindset to look to the world, to change, to make
the victim feel better. To ask for that, which is outside to alter. And one of
the dynamics we’ve spoken about is really this is a relationship, right? So you
have the individual in its victim state or non victim state relating to the
world. And both of them have to be inter interacting and connecting together.
Impressing upon one another to, sorry, helicopter to enact change and
development as a, as a species, as a culture and so on. And so when the victim
hood is getting stuck in this one direction dynamic to the outside world, we’re
really not going anywhere good. So that’s one part. And then we were talking
about what is it that, what is it that can cultivate resilience and speaking as
parents, as mothers, we’re looking at, okay, what is, what does that mean for parenting?
Thea: 02:55 You know, there’s
numerous parenting books and styles, everything. Well, what is the, the
function of the parent to be able to bring forth, can we pause? Sorry, my
timer’s going off. I forgot.
Anne: 03:11 So just to come back
after that interruption, you were talking about parenting what kind of
parenting? The type of parenting that really helps children become the type of
adult that can weather the storm as opposed to being demolished by it and
demanding that the world change or stop or alter to accommodate their inability
to handle that. Right? So that, that’s my take on it. Right?
Thea: 03:54 Right. And, and within
that take, I mean, we did, we talked about there’s a difference between the
demanding gesture and the commanding gesture. And within that, I feel like it’s
important just to have those moments to distinguish, I think recognizing the
difference of just, “Hey, pull yourself up by the bootstraps and you just
do it.” And that’s true. And when there are true things that need altering
in a culture, that is that, that’s that picture of that pressing. We have to
change one another in that relationship to evolve.
Anne: 04:31 Exactly. We, right. And,
and in the last conversation, in another conversation that we had had, I said,
you know, the extreme version is that idea of throwing a kid into the water
before they know how to swim and, “sink or swim.” Right? And that
people may have learned to swim that way back back when. Okay. But that’s not
ideal either because that’s traumatizing as well.
Thea: 04:55 And then probably they
don’t like to swim. Right? So, so and so talking about the distinguishing, what
is that characteristic or style of parenting and through many conversations
over the years, I had coined it as benign neglect, ah, as a parenting style or
as a parenting tool. And so here we get to talk about how that that dynamic can
be utilized as a parent with a child. It can also be utilized as a friend to a
friend or a partner to a partner in whatever dynamic. And essentially it is
when the child or friend or whomever is in a problem, in a struggle of sorts,
whatever that is, that, that you as the, or me as the support, the friend, the
parent, the guide is clear about where they are with their problem and where I
reside with myself. Therefore I’m not getting into their problem with them and
taking it over and trying to fix it, but I can be a supportive tool or a guide
to help them find their way to their own solution.
Anne: 06:24 Yes. So it’s, because in,
in another conversation that we had talked about, you know, it’s, it’s not
helicopter parenting, right? It’s also not “Cry it out.” Right?
Thea: 06:45 Right.
Anne: 06:45 It’s, it is allowing the
child the space to struggle and prove something to him or herself really is
what it is. And you had identified this in another conversation. It’s also
letting that child or partner or friend know that you’ve got the utmost faith
in them to be able to do it. And so much faith that you don’t have to fix it
for them or do it for them or make it easier. And one of the examples we had
touched on was in a very basic way that most parents understand, and I think
this is, it’s interesting when we were talking about the knowingness, before? I
don’t know that any parent, I’ve never seen any parent interfere with the, the,
the, the baby who is struggling desperately to get up on their hands and knees
Anne: 07:55 We instinctively know
somewhere deep inside of us that the only way that baby is going to move
forward is if we allow them to do it themselves. No matter how much their
crying and frustrated and you can see it in their face, right? We all allow our
kids to do that. The key I think is to continue doing that throughout their
lives and to do that with anyone else. But it, it doesn’t mean, I mean if you
know, if danger is coming and the kid’s right in the midst of learning how to
crawl, we’re not going to just let them do that and come to harm, right? So
there’s a balance.
Thea: 08:40 There’s a balance and
that muscle has to be exercised so that we can tune into what that is, that
dynamic of healthy struggle as opposed to endangering pain. So for ourselves as
parents to our children and for ourselves as individuals experiencing pain, I
mean it’s such a, such a, such a layered web of becoming an identifying reality
as such, you know, in terms of what happens in that moment if we, if I as a
parent take my child out of that moment of struggle when it was good, healthy
struggle, I have robbed them of their own experience of proving something to
themselves. I have also robbed myself as the parent of allowing that growth
that occurs for our children to become more individual, separate from the
parent. If I take take that child up before it’s time. I didn’t quite hit that
Anne: 09:56 I know, I know what you
were getting at just to because the, the parent, it’s an, you know, we’re doing
a, we’re dancing with our kids, especially those first 18 or so years. And if
we don’t allow them to do that in front of us, then we’re also robbing
ourselves of that knowledge that our kids are actually going to be okay.
Thea: 10:25 Right. And I mean, and
then you know, that can I kind of lost where I was going, but it kind of, it
can get so hijacked for so many reasons. And, and sometimes you’ll see this
with parents who, you know, I can’t remember. It’s some syndrome of some sort
or some complex that it’s called when a parent needs a child to be sick? So
there’s, so that’s like an extreme distorted dynamic of it, to be needed. Yeah.
there is, and then as you’re talking about a child learning how to press up
into hands and knees I don’t know what’s on the market these days, but I do
know that there are things provided for babies to sit up before they’re ready
to sit up, there are things provided for babies to stand before they’re ready
Anne: 11:13 Or to walk. Walkers,
Thea: 11:14 Or to walk. So we have
these things that are in our broad culture that are, are pushing us away from
the intrinsic instinctual and intuitive parenting that we have with our
Thea: 11:38 And so again, so what
those things are doing and we can map that back to pregnancy, I mean to, you
know, it’s like everywhere that it’s, it’s pulling us away from exercising that
muscle of instinct and the other side of that, intuition. Those two sides of
knowing beyond the factual seeing.
Anne: 12:00 Beyond the parenting book
that tells you, “In this situation, allow your child to learn to climb the
tree but don’t make the, make sure the tree isn’t so high” or something
like that. We have to get past that. We have to instinctively know. And, and
that, that comes from the beginning and practicing this from the beginning when
the risks are very low.
Anne: 12:23 Right? So when it’s just
learning to rollover learning to grasp it’s to allow the child, the, the full
capacity and range to go through their struggle and overcome that step by step
Thea: 12:42 Yes. That muscle grows
Anne: 12:47 You can, and you know,
this would be another conversation, but I didn’t even think, you know, fever.
Right? Or all of the other things that our body does, right? It’s like, or
pain. The pain relievers. Our obsession with pain relief on every level. Our
obsession with not allowing people to be depressed for very normal reasons.
Like grief. I remember when our folks died, you know, and you know, people
offering to prescribe medication to minimize our grief. Right? No! We have to
grieve and move through that in order to come out the other side. Anyway.
Thea: 13:28 Well, one more thing I
think, I mean it’s, I know it’s so fun and exciting to explore the ideas and
see all the avenues where they’re connected. But one of the other parts was in
that experience of struggle and frustration and discomfort, you know, as
parents, we are, it’s such a huge responsibility in terms of identifying and
naming things for our children. So, so rather than that struggle, that hard
work that makes their muscles tired rather than that being pain, that’s
frustration and strengthening. But if it has been named as pain, I mean, I’m
using this, pushing up on my hands and knees, but it can be so many other
things. You know, as, I’ve worked with kids who, oh, they have sore muscles and
it feels like pain because they don’t yet know how to name that as, “my
muscles are sore because I use them in a new way.” So just the importance
of that identifying and naming of something. And if we don’t allow that healthy
struggle, when we, when that resistance comes at us in a, in an uncomfortable
way, a child who has not had the experience of going through that resistance,
feeling that resistance and coming out the other end may think, whoa, that’s
Anne: 14:57 Or there’s something
wrong here, which relates to something we’ve talked about before, which is what
you’d said, being okay with being uncomfortable, being comfortable with being
Thea: 15:10 Yes. Getting comfortable
in the discomfort. And that is parents, I mean, that’s like one of our first
jobs, getting comfortable with that discomfort of everything that’s going to be
coming our way, raising children into the world. And if we can get comfortable
there, our kids can get comfortable there and find their own way with it and
Anne: 15:41 Avoid it. Not avoid it.
Thea: 15:43 Yeah. Yeah.
Anne: 15:44 Um you know, which also
reminds me of other things we’ve talked about. A conversation we had had about
just, you know, even in a household, I mean, I’ve talked to other friends of
mine about this, but you know, my husband and I fight, right? We don’t take it
behind closed doors and then come out after it’s all resolved. The kids see us
fight, the kids see us resolve it. Right? And I, you know, some might think
might say we’re, we’re a little too, you know, just, it’s all, it’s all out
here, right? There’s but hold on one sec.
Anne: 16:33 Okay. So anyway, so yeah,
just, just, just in, in regards life’s problems, right? Obviously everything
has to be developmentally appropriate. I’m not going to introduce my kids to
worldly problems that are not impacting them right now, that they’re not ready,
I feel to handle yet, but bit by bit, I think that we can, you know, we need to
find a flow in which we’re not contriving the world. You know, the, the, there
is a struggle. The human experience is, is, and can be a struggle. It’s, there
is beauty in the struggle, right? And, and we overcome. And we triumph. And so,
so how do, how do we, how do we guide our children to learn that and know that
Thea: 17:34 Well one of the things
you had said in our conversation another time was really the task of the parent
is to allow for the safe creation of a practice world for the child. And I
would tie that even into our, our last conversation we shared about games.
That’s what games do, right? There our practice world for meeting challenges
and all these different dynamics, social dynamics and such. And as parents, if
we can allow for that practice world, the struggle can happen. The conflicts
can happen. And when there’s need for intervention, we’re there. But the need
is so much, so much less frequent than we think.
Anne: 18:24 And let me interrupt
something cause it, it makes me realize something that’s worth saying. I think
the reason that we have gone this whole other direction is because our
generation, maybe even the generation before came from more authoritarian, an
extremeness the other way, that we’ve been trying to, we’re reacting to that.
And people may be, perhaps are going overboard in, in sparing children, any
pain, any pain, any struggle, right?
Anne: 19:02 Which also goes into this
whole idea of giving your kids boundaries and guidelines too, right?
Thea: 19:11 Yes. It’s not a free for
Anne: 19:13 Exactly. We both live in
areas where a lot of people read a lot of books about parenting. And I think
there’s sometimes a tendency to, in order to allow the child to freely express
themselves they’re not giving the child enough enough boundary to push against.
Thea: 19:40 Right. And so what that
also sparks for me in that is, you know, really when I was thinking about this
benign neglect, it was sort of like how to raise the child that you’ll like as
an adult. That you’ll like to be around as an adult.
Anne: 19:57 Okay. We’re back.
Thea: 19:58 So I believe I was talking
about this idea of how do you raise a kid you’re going to like as an adult and
ideally, hey, that you mostly like when they’re a kid as well. There’s going to
be periods where you don’t, you know. That’s, that’s appropriate. And we were
talking a little bit earlier about how allowing for or giving the space of a
benign neglect practice of parenting allows for a young person or anyone to
develop their own relationship with, with what is good and true to build a
muscle with those activities and ways of relating to the world. And if those
ways are practiced and that relationship with what is good and true and
beautiful is strengthened, then they’re able to come into the world and touch
in with those qualities and know when they’re in line with those qualities and
when they’re not.
Anne: 20:59 Without someone else
Thea: 21:04 Right. So that goes to
this idea of approval, external approvals or not. So you also made a comment
about Orson Scott Card saying that, an author, saying you’re not really truly
an adult until…
Anne: 21:18 Until you stop worrying
about what other people think of you. And I, and I qualified this when we
talked about it before that of course it makes sense to regard and check in
with those you love and respect, or those you respect really, because we all
need to be checked sometimes. And we all need the feedback from the outside
world to really, to have some perspective on ourselves, some objective
perspective. But, you know, and this is a conversation for another time, but I
think even our educational system is geared toward training people from very
early ages to seek approval, to seek authoritarian approval, really authority’s
approval or seek someone’s approval uh in order to move forward. And I think
the key is to raise people who have a, the word you’ve used is compass, who,
who have a compass, a keen compass. That over time allows them to sense when
they are behaving badly, basically.
Anne: 22:40 Right? Or going down the
wrong path. Because it’s not about behaving badly. It’s also about behaving
purposefully. There are some great figures in history, many who have gone
forward because they, their compass told them and directed them so, and much of
the world thought they were crazy, but they ended up being the movers.
Thea: 23:10 Well, and, and I feel
like, I just want to fill that in a little bit because I think developmentally,
you know, there is an appropriate time to look to your teacher, your guide,
your parents for approval. That is a healthy, appropriate thing. But the task
is then for that dynamic to evolve. So when that teacher, parent you know, is
doing a good job, they get to where they don’t, that the student isn’t looking
for the approval anymore because the approval is in the doing or the, the act
itself. And so that’s just, that’s a dynamic of teaching that gets distorted,
Anne: 23:55 Right, right. And
parenting, teaching and parenting, right? Because if, if the teacher or the
parent is not mindful enough of their own stuff to, to do their best to regard
that other being that other person as a separate.
Thea: 24:17 Free being.
Anne: 24:19 Yeah. As a separate free
being, having their own growth, their own challenges, their own struggles that
don’t reflect on us. One way or the other, right? If they can do that, they’ll
go a long way toward healthily giving their approval or disapproval when the
child needs it.
Thea: 24:43 Yeah. Right. And knowing
when those moments are which is so key and that really, so…Two things out of
that, if I can keep it. One was, you know, touching on traumas before I go into
that. The other part I wanted to accent is, so in terms of that, that trauma
that, that we can get caught up in, which doesn’t allow that person to go
through their own struggle of their own that isn’t ours.
Anne: 25:15 Let, let, let me clarify
that…what we had talked about in another conversation was that it is often
our own traumas as parents that influence us to not want to let the child
struggle through their necessary struggle. Right? We want to spare them the
traumas that we had, which is why it’s so important to become conscious of our traumas,
identify them and work through them in whatever healthy way we can. Not get
stuck in them and project them onto our children as well. So we had talked
about that which…Traumas probably needs to be its own conversation, and I’ve
seen our time. We’re pretty long.
Thea: 26:09 So really it’s, it’s the
notion if we’re just to pull these things together, the notion, oh I got it.
Really the work is individually as parents, individually as a a partner or
friend, is that work of clarifying our own ah, work, our own habits that either
take us into good things or bad things or, and good healthy relationship
Thea: 26:37 And the more we do that
individually, the more that simply translates into how we are going allow
another human being to develop freely. If we are working on freeing ourselves
from whatever is externally pressing in upon us in terms of teachers’ approval
Anne: 27:01 Pain. Headaches, body
aches emotional aches. If we can face those, step by step every day and move
through them and prove to ourselves that we’re all okay, we’re all going to be
okay. Just keep moving forward. Right? We are powerful beings. We can handle a
lot. If we can do that, and be mindful of it for ourselves, that helps us to be
more mindful of it for our children. It helps us to be more mindful of it for
our friends, for our partners and for all the members of society around us,
right? To be compassionate. And respectful. But to have such faith in each
other, that, that we are capable of overcoming. And become resilient, right?
Thea: 28:00 Absolultely. Becoming
Anne: 28:05 And so maybe, maybe in
another one we may flesh out more material examples of that, you know, with,
you know, beyond the, the crawling.
Thea: 28:13 Right. Taking it into
stages of development, even relationship dynamics or struggles that can come
up. That would be really good fun.
Anne: 28:27 Yes. Good work for all of
Thea: 28:29 Good work for everybody.
All right. Thank you Anne.
Anne: 28:32 Thank you, Thee. All
right. See you next time. Bye.
My sister Thea Mason and I discuss the significance of playing games and partner dancing in the development of healthy boundaries and relationship skills.
Okay. Hi Thea.
Hi Anne. It’s good to see you.
And you. So, to introduce this conversation, we had a longer broader
conversation about the societal fabric, women and men, feminism, children,
parenting. In the last one, and we touched on a lot of different sub topics
that I think we can flesh out a bit more, and this is one of them and, I’ll
take my notes away so I’m not thinking about that. Um, so basically we were
talking about this, we’re talking about the fact that the fabric, um, has
broken down in relation to the dynamic between men and women in, in this
society. And that’s a problem for many reasons. Um, not the least of which is
the fact that the, the relationship and that balance between men and women is
the foundation for the family, which is the foundation for the future.
And in, in discussing this, you said something to me, which really hit me. Uh,
I don’t know why I hadn’t thought about it so much before, but when you were
talking about your work with Spatial Dynamics, um, you, you said flirting is
play, that banter is play and that part of the problem here is that people
don’t know how to play anymore. Right? And that really hit me and I thought, my
God, that’s, that is it. So I want to discuss flirting as play and hand it over
to you to––if you could say again more articulately than I can. You were
talking about playing games, how critical that is and why. So.
Okay. So, um, yeah, I have the privilege to do this work in a Waldorf School of
teaching games and movement and sport and such things. And one of the different
things that we do in a Waldorf school is we do not bring adultified sport to a
first grader. We don’t bring, um, sports in such a way that it, uh, until it
meets the development of the human being, which is generally, you know, we’re
coming into it at fifth grade, really sixth grade when we come into black and
white rules in a certain way and the way we need to form ourselves. And that’s
what sports are. There’s black and white rules. So you win or you lose, you’re
in or you’re out. It was good or it was bad. Um, and games are the opposite of
that. And what we see in the broader culture is more and more and more, over––since
we were children certainly––a stronger and stronger push towards earlier
participation in sport, people, putting their children in organized sports. Um,
and when I say that I want to qualify, that doesn’t mean there aren’t times
where there’s an amazing parent or coach who runs a sport program for young
children and does it artfully, healthily and well. That happens.
But in general, when a young child comes into that sort of situation, it
doesn’t really make sense to them, because what we want to do as children is
play. We want to engage, we want to keep moving. We want to keep exploring. Um,
the way we relate to the world, the way the world relates to us and the way we
relate to one another. So that’s broad. And so what I see in the work I do with
children is playing these games, which are tag games. These are old games that
we played as kids. I have the most fond memories of playing ditch, uh, in the
backfield behind her house with the few neighborhood kids that were there,
which is a hide and seek tag game. And it was the best. We play it at dusk, you
know, so there was a little bit of, um, danger, a little bit of fear,
excitement, and, uh, and I, I can still feel that in myself today. Um, and to
tie it in with our conversation today in flirting, I remember this boy in our
neighborhood, you know. Being caught? Oooh! Boy. Was that fun.
In a safe environment, but I was caught, you know, um, and how exhilarating
that was. And so when our culture, our school culture, um, and our afterschool
culture is not, um, allowing that space for those sorts of explorations to
occur, we have these children that don’t know how to move in those spaces, um,
respectfully with themselves and towards others. Now that’s a lot and it’s a
big overview. So jump in wherever something isn’t quite clicking.
Well, no, it’s all clicking to me, and I was there in your childhood. So, um,
but if you could put into language, you had said something to me that really
clicked, which was that playing games like that teaches children how to work
and move dynamically within a group and be a part of the group, but at the same
time maintaining their separateness. So…
Okay. So yeah, so that’s, I think what I said was, playing games is the
practice of making connections and remaining separate.
And those words come from my teacher Jaimen McMillan, who founded Spacial
Dynamics. And his work is vast and broad, but it is essentially about making
connections. And what relationships are from my experience thus far is making
connections. And where the really challenging part is, is remaining separate.
Maintaining one’s individuality while merging with another. Right? So, you
know, if that’s what games give us the capacity and the, the experience of
developing that muscle, of being able to come in, fully engage, and still be
oneself, that’s a pretty good map for how we engage with the world in relationship,
really in all things. And that’s what I’m, you know, I’m continuing to work to
figure out and do, but in games, that’s that experience. It also gives the
experience of um, which I’m going to––Jaimen has also said this––that you know,
what you see in today’s sport culture on TV, televised sports are a lot of
people who never learned how to play. So when people don’t make it, they get
really angry. Um, they throw a fit, they throw a tantrum, sort of like one
would as a child throw a tantrum when they don’t get what they want or
whatever. So it’s sort of like developmentally, these people, and maybe that’s
even to go into, you know, uh, when, when someone is pursuing someone of the
opposite sex and, or same sex or whatever sex, um, and they aren’t getting what
they want, that there’s this tantrum and that’s where violence can occur.
Right? ‘Cause hat’s, that’s, that’s a tantrum, that’s a fit. So, you know, not
to simplify it totally, but there is, if one learns that you can play a game,
you can get caught or not get caught, make the catch or not make the catch and
you’re still okay. Then, if we learn that, we can carry that into every other
And I would also then say, ’cause this is a lot of what I’ve been thinking
about this, again, flirting is play, flirting as play. You had said something
like, you know, that banter, that flirtation, that’s what’s so fun, right? Now
that is, uh, that’s being lost, right? For, for a variety of reasons. Not, not,
you know, one of them is simply that men are afraid, uh, of being accused of
something inappropriate at this point, right? I was, I was at Costco and, uh,
and, and a man that was, uh, checking the receipt, um, you know, just, just,
just playfully flirted with me in just a very lovely, benign way. And I
thought, thank goodness! That doesn’t happen so much anymore between strangers,
right? Maybe with people who know each other and feel safe, but just with
strangers, it’s like, that’s just, that brings a smile to everyone’s face.
Right? So, so I was thinking also, uh, as I had mentioned to you, oh, along the
lines of, um, what play does as you’re explaining when you have to…I mean,
there’s so much going on in a game and even even with a sport as well, right?
Um, but, but it’s even more organic when it’s, when it’s kids of their own
volition organizing casually a game together and being only subject to each
other’s roles rather than some arbiter’s rules. Right? So if the kids, if one
kid gets a little too pushy, or one kid oversteps their boundaries, those other
kids are going to hold them to it and let them know, right? There’s no way
around that. And so, doing that kind of thing over and over develops a, a keen
sense of unspoken language, you know, unspoken communication, um, boundaries,
very much boundaries, right? Because if you can’t be in the game, like in the
old days, like when you were talking about when we were kids, and we were left
to our own devices playing out in the creek for hours with the neighborhood
kids, uh, there were no parents to go and complain to if one kid didn’t do this
right or wrong. So they had to figure it out. And that seems to me what is
That’s one of the things that’s lost, you know, I would say, and I think that
comes down to––so hopefully I can catch everything, what you said, you know,
the, the invaluable experience of forming the meaningful rules within the group
as to the particular game, which can vary depending on location, right? Like
things are going to shift because of location and environment. You’re going to
have different rules, different boundaries, different whatever. So there’s so
much varied learning in that, there’s so much cooperative working in that. So
even though it’s casual in that it’s not coming from an external force to give
the rules and the form, it’s not taken lightly. Right? It’s SERIOUS business
and um, you know, uh, and the other thing that I wanted to say was what, what
comes of that, when they’re holding each other to these agreed upon rules of
some sort––knowing when, so here’s the other part, what kids will know and do
this really well, is, they’ll make these rules, but you know, if there’s one
child that can’t run so well or has some hardship of sorts, it might even be
that they’re very emotional or they, whatever that could be. The group knows
that. So they might adjust those rules in the way they work with that child
without it even being spoken. Right? They’re not going to expect the same of
this person today or whatever it is. There’s, there’s much more intelligent
sensitivity to what’s going on and it’s not arbitrary. So it’s not this general
rule from the outside, which is going to be applied to everybody, but it’s
okay. So that’s part of it too. Like the nuance, the subtlety and the nuance.
And I took it a little further out, but the other part was what they learn is
WHEN is it important to step up and hold someone accountable to it? Cause it’s
not going to be the same for each participant. Right? So that was the other part
that I feel like is really key because with, even then if we take that into a
flirtatious banter, it’s going to be different with different people, right?
Or, or with the same person, different days, different environments, different
moods. And so it’s critical for both parties. But I’m thinking, of course for
the man in this situation, to know when to really sense when he can push it a
little bit and when he shouldn’t. Because as, as we’ve discussed, I don’t want
a man to ask me if he can kiss me. I mean come on. I want a man kiss to me when
the time when that time is right. And I want man who can take the risk of
rejection as well. But a man who is in possession enough of himself and
connected enough to me to read me. So that speaks to what you’re saying. Like it’s
like when to, cause there are times,, there is a time for everything and there
is a time to, to push it a little bit as well so that it drives things forward.
And if we are governed by arbitrary rules coming in from all sides, whether it
be a child’s game, which adults are facilitating and leading. Or a society, uh,
governed by, you know, either regulations that have been put in place
officially or unofficial regulations based on a trend in society for people to
accuse people of being inappropriate, whatever it is, right? Then that just
kills it, kills the light, kills the development moving forward. And what’s the
point? Kind of. It’s no fun anymore. It’s no fun if you have to do that. And as
we both know, uh, and me probably more because I have always, you know, came at
it headier, right? And I was the, I had kids after you, so I had to learn my
own lesson, but you know, making the rules right? And one of my kids is very
into rules, and justice. And fairness, right? And so, okay, this situation,
okay, this came up. What’s the rule now going forward, this situation, what’s
real going forward? Well, you keep adding these rules together and it just, you
get lost up your own… Right? To the point that I am like, you know what? Forget
it. No more rules. The only rule in this house is common courtesy, so figure it
out. You know? So, so, okay. So in order to keep this short, and I’m now
realizing we didn’t set an alarm and we had started our meeting before we
started recording. I’m not sure where we’re at with it, but let’s…
10 minutes maybe.
Okay. That’s what I’m thinking. So, uh, let’s relate it to what I also realized
’cause you’ve just recently had some experience with this too, in observing
this, but. DANCE.
Dance. Right. Dance is play. Dance is play, also for the grownups, right? I mean,
thinking back to, you know, generations before us, dance was such a part of
every social event between men and women. The dance, the dance, because it is
A mating dance.
It is the mating dance, right? So we don’t have that kind of…I mean, it, it’s
here, it exists, but it’s not, it’s not such a, uh, a given anymore. You have
to really seek that out. And now realizing how critical it is for young people
to uh be formally taught together to dance as a couple. Because, gosh, you
know, yes, the, the man leads, right? The man learns to lead…
In most dances. Right?
Okay. There you go. In most dances. But also to have, even in leading, to have
this equal exchange of energy between these two people, but also function as
one organism moving through space, right? It’s beautiful. And so, yeah. So,
okay. Do you want to say something?
So, well, I was going to say, and with dance, what’s so beautiful about that is
it’s taken the informal play of childhood, and it’s given it a structure so
that each person gets to step into an organized, already established structure,
which allows them the freedom to meet that person. And you know, I’ve done only
a little dance and I don’t go out too much with my life. But when I do, what I
am always struck with is the real sincere joy it is to dance with different
partners, to be able to step into those spaces with them and have that, that
spark. Or not. Of appreciation for the other. And then to leave and go dance
with someone else. And then it’s, it’s, I mean, and that’s what social dances
give and provide. Right? So, especially in so many social dances, you are
changing partners throughout the dance and you may come back to your original
partner, or you may not, but you have the freedom to just touch in with others.
So that’s the exercise and connecting and remaining separate too. So I mean,
dance. And all I was going to say in the leading that has been a journey for me
and this experience of stepping into dancing with people is, I can follow
really well if I am being led well.
Exactly! Otherwise you end up leading, right? Me too!
Otherwise I end up leading. Or there’s the confusion of who is leading, and so
that’s an art form in itself. And something, um, just talking with my son who’s
now at school and they––fortunate, to all things––being able to be at a school
where they’re actually using these ideas and putting it into place in terms of
building a social community on the campus. And so in the dance that they’re
doing, they were doing swing dance. And swing is so fun because there is the
exchange of who leads who, even the way they’re holding hands, it’s, you know,
it, it moves, it changes. It has so much fluidity to it and there’s a real, um,
exchange of communication, you know, of how, who is leading right now. Who
isn’t. Who’s following. So being able to exercise both of those and know what
you’re doing when you’re doing it. I mean, that’s pretty exciting too, so.
Absolutely. Yeah. Um, so, and what strikes me, sorry, I got distracted looking
at the time because now all of a sudden it seems like… I have no idea how much
time it’s been. We’ll kind of bring it to a close. Um, it strikes me that in
that environment of the dance, a space that has been designated that evening or
whatever it is that day for a dance to happen with this group of men and group
of women to come together, first off you talked about, uh, trying out different
partners in a way that. Number one, that takes the pressure off of any one
person to be everything to each one. So it kind of keeps it a little lighter.
Number two, it is a safe space to practice this mating ritual, right? You are
touching. There is romance too. There’s music. But it’s um, again it’s, it’s
out in the open.
Objective. It has an objectivity to it I think.
Yes, yes it does. And so if, if kids, young men and young women, and now I
guess I’m coming to my suggestion as, as a solution, right? If adults can
practice that more than we do already in that objective, in that safe space,
they will be better equipped to manage situations that come up in the
subjective or more private space and more intimate space between men and women.
‘Cause can I, that just sparks a quick thought in that. Because what, what is
what we’re challenged with right now, it seems like, is people having unclear
sense of their own boundaries. Because if we, I mean, this word boundaries is
used a lot, but, but in terms of what’s my space and what’s your space, and so
if I’m clear about where mine is and when, where yours begins, I can know if
something’s really coming into that space and if it’s not receiving my push
out. Does that make sense? Yeah. So if people are not clear about where their
space is and everything’s coming all the way in, then boy, I’m going to feel
A lot. Right. So, so that’s that, that exercise that, you know, we all have is
to find––what is our space that we live in and where do we want to choose to
engage with others in that. And that’s what games teach us. Can teach.
There you go. Um, I think I’m going to wrap it up because I think I’ve got some
people coming through the door.
Um, so thank you, Thea. That was great. And we’ll let, we’ll do this again
All right. We’ll play again.
We’ll, we’ll play again.
I felt like Mom (laugh).
And, and discover, hang on just a sec. Okay?
Following on an article I wrote a while back calledFeminism Got it Wrong, my sister Thea Mason and I examine and discuss the roles of women and men, parenting, children, Feminism’s impact on the fabric of society––and family camping and playing games as prescriptions for necessary healing.
Thea and I, my sister Thea and I, Anne, are going to start an experiment and
start recording our conversations that we would otherwise have anyway. We find
that we have been seeking some understanding as we examine what’s going on in
the culture. Thea is a teacher in the Waldorf school in, in, in the Wa, in the
private Waldorf schools. And I’m a homeschooling. Uh. Waldorf inspired
homeschooling mother. Uh, we both had different experiences in our lives, which
have led us to this point and we come at things differently, but find a lot of
common, uh, perceptions about, I think the problem…
State of things that we see.
Yeah. The state of things.
Fellow women in families… In what we observe in our little windows into the
culture in the world.
Yeah. And into…and the children. Right. Who are coming up to, you know, take
And very challenging times that they’re coming into.
Yeah! And the challenging times, uh, includes, uh, w w well, the, the, my own
issues, my own lament is, is seeing children all around me…
Suffering, and, and, and parents flailing.
Parents are suffering, too.
And, and parents…Thea…Let’s establish this right now. I think Thea is more
compassionate in the lens she brings to this and I, I am not, probably just as
a person in general.
Well you’re the eldest and I’m the third of four daughters. So there are
different roles. We’ve played our whole lives that we continue to work with. I
Exactly. Exactly. So it’s nice that we have each other to balance it out.
It sure is.
And, and so, you know, just just to, to bring it down to kind of more
practical, material, uh, language. You know, children are medicated, uh, to
high heaven. Parents are medicated. Children are addicted to video games.
Social media. Children are diagnosed with every disorder under the sun.
And diseases. And women and men, mothers and fathers seem to be at a loss. I
see… I live in..I live in a pretty wealthy county as, as do you in, in
California. And I see people spending a load of money and giving that money to
experts to help them figure out what’s going on with their kid and to help them
get their kids back on track.
I would say also in here, just in terms of that picture of parents
struggling…suffering…there is a sense that they are disempowered to be the masters
of their family, to be the shepherds of their children. And um, I think one of
the things that we synthesized out of our last discussion that we shared––which
we wanted to share but was so vast and varied that we’re working to bring it a
little bit more to the point––is, you know, we hear a lot of this notion
through the feminist movement and really through, I would say all movements of
people right now, is this idea of being empowered. Empowered to choose your
life, to choose your path, for your children to choose their path. And…I don’t
know if I’m jumping the gun here, but this idea of: what does that mean? What
does it mean to be empowered? Because what you’re laying out is this picture of
a lot of people who are not empowered, a lot of people who are at the whim of
the current science, at the whim of the current trends and disorders. And how
do you function with your children or yourself when you’re not really in
charge? I don’t know.
Absolutely. And to kind of circle back to even how we got to this. You know, I
wrote an article a couple of years ago or whatever, or a year ago, whatever,
where I said feminism got it wrong. Because I had begun becoming very
disenchanted with, uh, with, with this movement that is…It was around the time
of the, the pussy hats and the march and, and I felt like it was misguided. I
felt that it was, uh, yeah, I felt it was misguided. And, and I started, you
know, thinking a lot about, and, uh, reading a lot about…reflecting on my own
experience in, in college, in, in taking women’s studies courses, learning
about feminism and, you know, reflecting on the fact that I, I think that it’s,
there’s an overemphasis on women outside the home, women as individuals where
I, as I had identified in that article, I had identified that, you know, first
and foremost, I think women’s role is to be mothers. I mean, otherwise humanity
doesn’t keep going. Right? That’s, that’s our main, that’s the main thing. It
doesn’t mean that needs to be a mother. Right? And not everyone will be. And we
all bring in a different aspect of mothering, uh, and, and the female to
mothering society, whether or not we are actually giving birth to children. But
by and large, that is our role. And, and, and I to had also, uh, articulated
that I believe women, women are the stewards of humanity. Since we are the
mothers and we are the primary guides, uh––not to take away from the critical
and equal significance of the father––but we are the nurturers. We bring in,
uh, or, or rather, let’s just say together we bring in the life, we bring in
the children and, but, but we deliver them into the world. And from the early,
their early ages, we prepare them, we care for them. We, we transition them
into the earth, into this earthly realm.
Earthly existence…and what do we do here with them, and how do they become? And
how do they harness the power to meet the tasks? Of life. Right?
Something you said, what did it just trigger? Darn it. Women…
Well, well, I, had also said, you know, pointed out that, you know, of, of
equal incredible, monumental significance is the role of the father.
And we as mothers have experienced, uh, what becomes obvious to parents, which
is that the early years that the child requires that nurture. As the child gets
older, it requires much more of the father’s kind of, you know,.
role. And dynamic.
You know, the father brings the worldly in, right? And brings the worldly
regard for that child as the child starts to be…to separate from the mother and
to find his own, his or her own individuality. So, all right. So I’ll, I’ll
stop there and return to what you were talking about, which is…
So let me, let me interrupt real quick. So in talking about, you did mention
what you had written a few years ago about feminism got It wrong. And I think
one of the main points that you had made in that well-written article was that
there’s been a devaluing of the work of the mother and that, that I think is
where, if I’m not incorrect, that’s like the point, the main point of how
feminism got it wrong. Because that, and I’ve spoken about this with you in
terms of me as a mother and the provider, it’s like how did that, what did I gain?
What did I gain by being able to do all of that, you know, and, and having to
spread myself so thin because I would love to be the homemaker, the mother, to
work in the domain… I like that work. And I know not everyone does. So it’s, so
that’s in terms of what did feminism get wrong? What did we really gain? You
know, that now we’re expected to, even in two parent homes, you’ve got fathers
and mothers both working outside the home. And you know, anyone that knows
about cooking real food, that’s like a full time job just to maintain feeding a
family. I mean, that takes thinking, planning, prepping. So it’s like we’ve
been robbed of all these faces to process and nurture because of time, right?
So, so then, so then through that devaluing of motherhood and fatherhood
essentially, I mean, they’re both, you know, they both are. And now they’re
really mixed up and there’s a lack of clarity and, uh, help me out here because
from that, that devaluing, we are less empowered to be who we are and to do the
work we’re here to do. Is what I’ve been sitting with and thinking about.
Yes, yes, yes. Uh, so in a way it’s like, so if the feminist movement,
originally was born out of an impulse to shine light on the the value of the
woman to society, what, what seems to have happened instead is it has discarded
a critical core spirit of what a woman is and what a woman can bring to the
And what a woman does differently than a man, and what a man does differently
than a woman. And feminism has been all about, “women can do what men do.” I
personally don’t care to do that. Right? Like there are moments that women take
the lead or are in charge. And both of us are pretty strong willed, fiery
women, but I don’t see the world in the way a man does. I don’t look at things
in the same way. So why are women trying to function like men?
Right. Right. Um, I mean, I, I think I, I articulated this in the article too,
but just you know, I, uh, that occurred to me a long, long time ago that this,
this, you know, this striving to, uh, compete in a man’s world just by its very
nature implies that the woman’s world is…
Less important. Right So that first part is what I feel got got screwed up. Um,
I also, I had mentioned this before, but I had seen Ann Coulter’s, an interview
with Ann Coulter where she, she said something that kind of startled me into an
awareness that the suffragette movement may not have even gotten it right.
Again, I understand. Because, because possibilities for women, were limited for
one reason or another. I don’t know. I don’t know why that happened. Um,
because let’s, let’s, let’s be real here. I mean, women have sex, right? I
mean, and men want to have sex, right? So I don’t understand. You know, there
is a power in that. And speaking of…pause for one second, hold on. Yeah,
exactly right. Well, all right, I guess I may not even go there.
Right. That’s okay.
But basically, you know, women and men need each other, right? Men have certain
needs and women have certain needs, and there is an arrangement there. Marriage
is the arrangement that is made. Women give men what they need, which is sex,
um, nurturing love. Uh, they can, they can keep the home, they can, uh, advise
Okay, so are you, we’ll wait until it’s not. You there? Oh, it says Theodora
Mason, by the way.
It does. It was frozen for a minute.
I know. I stopped. I just stopped. So you were too. Okay. So, yes. So I don’t
understand how it went wrong. I don’t understand how men, uh, abused their…
Yeah. And so because they did, women had to do something, uh, to right it. And
it doesn’t feel as if it has gotten righted because it feels as if they’ve
thrown the baby out with the bath water.
I would agree. And it seems, though, what we did also touch in on a little bit
is that there is sometimes when, when there’s an impulse, it’s needed. To
stretch the fabric, a little bit, of how we function and, and are in the world.
And without the stretching and walking out the door and looking around at the
world, the view stays so small if it’s locked in. So in terms of how… It’s like
it had an impulse and it’s now gone astray. It’s sort of lost, its, uh, its
place of being. And, and now it’s about how can it take what it’s learned
through this journey and bring more intelligence and true empowerment to the
roles in which women inhabit, whatever those are––you know, main ones being
mothering, motherhood, family and caring for our young. Because we can see in
our country at least there is a deep issue and imbalance in the way young
people are growing up. So how do we take that learning and what do we do with
Well, let’s, can we, can we, uh, touch on briefly––what is the learning, what
is the learning been? What have we gained through this experiment of feminism
and what have we gained from, uh, giving women, uh, ample opportunity to step
outside their traditional roles in the home and get out into the world, the workforce
and the world, politics, government. All that. What have they, what have they
gained? You know, I might, I’ll, um, echo what I have talked to other women
about in the past. Um, we as, as homeschoolers, we have, you know, we have a
homeschool community and there are some very young women in this community as
well. There’s also a lot of us older ones who are, I’m almost 49 years old.
Right. I guess I understand what happens often, these days is that women wait.
They go get educated, they go have a career of some sort and then when the, the
clock starts ticking, they have children. That’s what I did. So a lot of us are
older and we have had the experience in the world in various professions. Some
of these younger women are being brought up. Uh, I, I’m thinking of one in
particular, uh, who went to law school to be a lawyer. Um, but she and her
husband started, uh, while she was in law school––they were both in law
school––to have children. And I see her trying to do it all. She’s not working
as a lawyer, but she’s, she’s using her degree in a number of very valuable
ways in the world. But I also see that it’s a lot, right? And I say to her and
I say to many, and I think I’ve said even to you like, you know what? The most
valuable, the most by far the most rewarding work I have ever done is
parenting, is homeschooling my kids. Is getting even back back in touch with I
think something that maybe we never even had. Us growing up with the two
working parent family, um, having order in my home, my home is not chaotic and
filthy––sometimes it gets messy––like you said, cooking, uh, uh, doing hand
work, ah, having a rhythm of a, a not a hectic pace. All of these things have
been, have felt so healthy. And parenting and homeschooling is beyond language
in terms of how fulfilling that is. Right? So, I bring this up to suggest that
the one, the main thing I think I’ve learned is that I am so grateful for this
opportunity to be a mother, to bring these children into the world, to be a
part of their experience and to understand my own experience simply by
witnessing their unfolding. And beyond and beyond and beyond. Right? But at the
same time, maybe because of my experience and my career before that perhaps I
have that confidence, to, uh, uh, to inhabit whatever realm I find myself in. I
think. Perhaps I have the experience––I mean, as you know, I’ve, I got involved
in, uh, a lot in, in Sacramento and basically fighting a lot of legislation.
Year after year. Perhaps my experience, my career, has, uh, assisted me in doing
that ’cause I’m going there and advocating on behalf of our, of the families
and the children. Right? So! I mean, how about you and, and let’s talk about
how you’ve done it differently.
Yeah, right. I came at it, at the opposite angle. Um, I think uh, I mean, help
me articulate it. I, you know, I, I came into adulthood becoming a parent. So
I’ve been a parent for almost 20 years, you know, basically 20 years now. Um,
and, and so that’s informed every part of me becoming a real adult. Um, and I,
and I didn’t do a career. I didn’t go through the same cycle in that way. So
I’ve found my voice in a different way though, in our reflection and sharing
too. It’s like my voice was always there, uh, in a sense. And I always sort of,
had a gut instinct that I’ve listened to, certainly regarding my children. Um,
and, and so, you know, I know I’m not…
No, no, let me jump in. Let me, because for anybody listening to this, it’s
like, so Thea had her first child at 23. Right? You were 23, weren’t you? And I
actually, I’m six years older than Thea, but I, I used…You were my model
actually, thank God. Right? And, and it took, you know, I was, uh, not going as
much with my instincts, I think in general as you did, you knew inherently to
do. I kind of, I wonder if it’s because it got educated out of me, it or it
got, you know, even through or through the experience of just being out there
in the, in the world and having to play that game. Right.
So I would suggest, and we’ve talked about this before, but like you just
articulated, I mean, I don’t really think you grow up. I mean, you can grow up
without having children, but it is a, um, baptism by fire into the world of
adulthood. Right? At least if you’re doing it, even semi-consciously. So you
have always been an adult. I don’t think I really was an adult, uh, until I
went through the first few years of the trials and challenges and decisions and
responsibility of parenting. Right? So, you know.
Well, it’s curious that what it sparks in me, just even that reflection on your
becoming a mother. My becoming a mother makes me think of our mother and our
parents. Both. I would’ve called them feminists, you know, growing up. And I
would say our mother was a different person in a large degree when she had me
and brought me into the world than she was when she had you. She was much more
empowered into herself, to a large degree. Through, you know, to, to, to in
many regards. Um, and was beginning to trust her instinct a bit more. And I
don’t know what those early years were like for our parents, you know, thinking
people, but still very mainstream American people in a lot of regards in terms
of family life. And, and um, through their trials and uh, struggles. They
became something more unique in that time through dealing with our sister who
was ill. So, so just in that, what that brings me to is just that when we’re
talking about the role of the mother, it’s who you are, that that sets up your
children for whatever their cycle, their ways of being, their ways of
interacting and understanding themselves in the world. Um, and that’s a huge
responsibility for parents, for women, for men. And we’re specifically speaking
about women ’cause that’s what we are, you know. Um, so it’s kind of like,
“Have courage, Women, for, for listening to your own self and discovering what
that is and what that’s speaking because who knows better for our children than
the parents, than the mothers? Than the people that have shepherded them into
the world?” And when we look at the issues that we’re facing, I keep coming to
our word “empowered” for today. It’s like, if each person truly were empowered
to listen to themselves and to listen to their child and to listen to the rhythm
of their life, that’s where change can happen.
Yes, I’d agree. And what I keep having going through my head is…and I just
realized, you mainly, your first many, many years of parenting chose work that
you could, that worked around your children.
Yes. Well that was the thing I knew and though my child’s father and I don’t
see eye to eye on a lot of things, we didn’t want to um, out…farm out at my
kids. I, it made, you know, we were, we were not wealthy and it never really
made sense to put my child in childcare. Who’s going to care for my child
better than me? I mean, and that was just like a basic.
And that I feel like that’s, that’s somewhat at the crux of this whole thing
here too. I mean that is a basic! No one is going to care for your child like
you. Right? So..
Especially let’s, I want to be specific about my own thinking there too.
Especially the infant. You know, if I had grandma, grandpa, Auntie, uncle, I
didn’t have that as a, as a young mother at all. I built community of people. I
could depend on what I needed, but in those early, very, very early years, I
can’t imagine. I can’t, I mean, and, and I, we made sacrifices that I didn’t
consider really sacrifices to not put my kid in some system like that. Um, but
as they get older, I mean, there’s that picture of the village, you know, it
takes a village because you being an Auntie and, and good friends that are
aunties and uncles to my kids, my kids need more than just me as an archetype.
And just their father as an archetype, they need other people so they can round
themselves out, you know, I think, and so however we build that community, and
that’s sort of what I think that’s the natural impulse of what school would be.
But our schools don’t work like that. Right. They don’t become part of the
village. That’s its separate entity for the most part. Waldorf schools, a small
Waldorf school does. It does take on this sense of a village. Um, yeah. It can
ideally, um, depending on how it’s held. So I know I’m…
No, it’s good! No, it’s all ’cause, this is important to…It’s all very
important to recognize and, okay. So let’s recap. We see that there are some
systemic problems. Uh, in the fabric of our society. School shootings have become
a regular thing.
Medication, mental health medication for young children, teenagers, adults.
That’s the norm.
Yes. That, that alone is a problem. Right? Um, so, so we need to fix it. I
don’t think that this third, third wave feminism, I do not think that it’s,
it’s serving us. What I see is, uh, is us moving away from the problems and the
wholeness and the unity and becoming more and more segmented and shrill and
divided and hateful. And we, we have and, and we, we can, we can flesh this out
in another conversation, but we’ve, you identified the fact that, you know, for
the woman to aspire to the archetype of woman, in, in, the archetypes full
glory, she needs the man to be aspiring to the archetype of the man in his full
glory. And feminism has been trying to do something in isolation, for some time
and now almost in a combatant manner.
Right. I find this Me Too movement, um, whacked.
It does not in any way suggest that, um, that, you know, abuse of one’s role or
abuse of power is in any way, something I would condone. But I, I think that we
are…movements like Me Too. And, and now…I frankly think the pussy hat march and
this, what I find a kooky railing against president Trump, by virtue of him
being a white man, it’s, it’s, it’s just driving us further away from what our
strengths are, and our roles are. And it is…
And what is…would bring health and happiness. And that’s, that there is a
togetherness that breeds happiness and health.
And we’re not victims. We are participants.
So here’s where I want to go from the Me Too. When this whole thing, which you
know, you’ve already qualified. It’s, “I AM” and “WE ARE” instead of Me Too to
Yes. I want to, I want to just put some clarity on it for anybody listening
’cause no one else has been involved in our conversations. But Thea came up
with this brilliant idea to, you know, when we were seeing what was happening
with this Me Too movement and the witch hunting that it started to become, and
also in fact, you know, I won’t, I won’t go into it too deeply, but to a start,
uh, accusing men, uh, of…Instead of dealing with what I think were substantial
situations in cases of men in power abusing their power and really
disrespecting themselves and women, I think it started turning into, uh, it,
um, it diminished the severity of the real situations where, and now men are
afraid to even have interviews. Interview a woman alone in an office, always
has to have a witness so that she doesn’t…
Accuse him of sexual harassment or something else. I mean, I know so many good
men who have, who have been a victim of this.
Yes, me too.
And it’s, you know, it devalues the moments where it really is a truly
abhorrent situation. Because learning, I mean, part of what I think we also
discussed in that is like, learning how to navigate in the world as a woman, as
a man is learning how to uh, deal with unwanted, uh, advances. I mean, that’s
part of learning how to be in the world.
That is absolutely part of learning how to be a woman. And to put, put even a
kind of a broader language on it. It is the responsibility, equal
responsibility of the woman, and the man to, uh, to keep the balance of power
And we’ve never had, uh, more, more physical strength than men. Right? But
throughout times in history, women have managed somehow to exert their
authority in this dynamic, very successfully. So we need to help women come
back to that, both with their men. And then also with their children.
And stop acting like children and victims. Right?
Victims. Yeah. Because we are then, you know, if a woman is only going to carry
that victim role, which it’s like, I want to qualify once more. That doesn’t
mean there aren’t situations where a woman is not a victim or a man is not a
victim, you know, there are real moments where it is atrocious. And that is
not, that is not what it is to be human, to have the, the beautiful
transformative power of sex be distorted in such a way that it becomes harmful.
That’s not being, that’s not humanity. That’s not true humanity. Right?
Exactly. Because that, that beautiful union between a man and a woman should be
empowering and glorious, not debasing and degrading right. That’s accepted as a
And when that goes wrong, that is wrong and should be addressed. When there is
the playful space. I mean, I could take all of this really back to what my…I’m
so fortunate to have this work of learning about play and games and work with
children and learning how to teach play because that’s something that has, you
know, slowly become less available to young children in the world. Due to so
many things. Um, but play, learning how to play.
That’s really what this comes down to, too. People that haven’t
learned how to play, which Jaiman McMillan, when we talk about––who’s my
teacher, Spacial Dynamics, great stuff. He, um, play is making connections and
knowing how to remain separate, making connections and remaining separate. And
when that play experience doesn’t happen, then when you have come into this
budding sexuality, if you don’t know how to interact and then separate how to
interact and read, “oh, that’s not what the situation calls for now.” When you
aren’t listening, that’s when violence happens. Right? When those, those
feelers that sense and perceive the situation, if they’re not working, if they
haven’t been trained to work properly, that’s when we screw up. And you know, I
mean obviously there’s, because I think what happens…I have a lot of compassion
for the young man. It’s a scary world to come into having these feelings for a
woman. How do you put yourself out there? How do you not be too forceful but
not be too cowardly? That’s a fine balance to come into and it’s play. That’s
what flirtation is. That’s what that banter is. That’s what’s so fun. When it’s
engaged in properly. And so that’s part of the work of being a mother too, is
to not be a victim. To have clear boundaries with your children and to be able
to engage and let them feel where they are and how they relate to you as the
archetype of woman for them. I’m talking about sons and daughters, you know.
Exactly. Let me, hold on one sec. So let’s, let’s conclude with touching on
some prescription toward healing this right toward, and we’ll, we’ll get into
it in further conversations about, about more of this. We’ll flesh it all out,
but I, I love what you identified, which is in a way, let’s get first back in
touch with that, that unspoken, a lot of the unspoken understandings between
men and women, maybe? Because you, you can’t reduce it all down to language.
And I think that’s part of what we’ve been trying to do. And so how do we begin
to heal this, this divide between men and women? Because let’s face it, our,
the survival of our humanity depends on that union, that healthy union, my door
has just opened….So how do we simultaneously, um, fulfill each other’s needs,
That is the thing. There it is.
So, yeah. So how do we, so, so we need to focus on healing that. Perhaps a
conversation needs to begin between men and women, right? A new conversation.
That fosters renewed respect for each other’s strengths and what they bring to
the party. Right? Once we do that, we can start focusing on our roles as
parents to these new human beings coming in who are going to take our place
and, uh, keep steering this ship. And I guess this is not any great epiphany or
great answers to it all. But in our last conversation, I had mentioned that,
uh, you know, someone, a friend of ours had been talking about, you know, maybe
like a, a woman’s conference to kind of to heal, to heal the traumas. Right? We
haven’t even touched on to traumas that, and we’ll do that in another one. And
my reaction was resistant because I feel as if it may draw, uh, the type of
person who wants to have more me time, be coddled, uh, and try to do this work
in isolation, which can’t be done. Right? And then you said, you pointed out,
well, let’s bring the men, too. Right?
It’d be more fun!
And, and, and then, and I was saying, well, and the children, right? Let’s
bring the children. And so let’s make it a family conference. Right? And you
said, “It’s called camping!” And there’s something to that because when you’re
camping, you’re out there. You’re together. And unless you’re gonna go run away
into the wilderness, you’re stuck together and you gotta make it work.
And you gotta make it work and it, and it simplifies. I mean, why do we all
like to go? I mean, those that like to go camping? It simplifies our, what we
do, eat, sleep, clean up, leisure time. And that’s about it, right?
Yes. And, and spending all that time together without distractions of
And, and phones, and everything else that is so accessible and prevalent
Yes. Forces us to respectfully figure out how to inhabit our space together.
And so, and, and, and to have conflict that you then can learn how to create
your own boundaries and respect other’s boundaries for solutions.
Gosh, that’s so true. Even without lots of rooms in a house or you know, uh, a
job to go off to. Right? So…
Because you’re in it.
Yes. Cause you’re in it and you and you, you can’t go anywhere. So we’re going
to hold that thought for our next conversation.
Let’s go camping.
That, you know, maybe what the world needs, the Western world needs is families
Families going camping!
And they may be able to work it all out,.
It’s true though! Because then your, your problems present. Your issues present
when you cannot isolate in the way that the world is becoming more and more
accustomed to. So…
Yes, yes! And you don’t have your shrink there to go talk about it with either.
And you don’t have anyone to complain to. I mean, honestly, families going
camping is like step one, you know, your own nuclear family. Step two is do it
with another family. Step three, add another family. And then it’s like that’s
how you build culture. Because then you’re going to have conflicts. You and I,
even when I, when I come up with my kids and the things that come up for our
kids, how they have a different family culture that they have to interact with
and work through and meet and find a dynamic together. So that’s our, our
remedy. Play games, interact in real ways. Do real things.
Yes. And let’s start talking about putting it into language that what we’re trying
to do is heal the dynamic between men and women. Not, and that is the
empowerment. That is empowering. To, to continue dividing and uh, vilifying…
Right. Blaming will get us nowhere. So let’s, let’s shift these movements.
Let’s figure out some new movements for the next conversation.
As you’ve been reading the news these days, have you noticed a new angle on the “anti-vaccine movement?” The same old rhetoric is being employed, but a bit more subtly. It’s couched in the context of pseudoscientific inquiry into the “phenomenon and psychology” of anyone critical of the vaccine program. Conveniently, media coverage focused on the “state of being vaccine hesitant” draws the conversation away from the actual concerns of the “vaccine hesitant”––such as vaccine injury, zero liability for vaccine manufacturers, an ever-increasing vaccine schedule (72 doses by age 18!) and no double-blind placebo safety testing for any childhood vaccine on the schedule.
All these pieces depict the “vaccine hesitant” as if they are a singularly minded subgroup characterized by a shared “affliction” which requires intervention. This is a clever pretense, but one that many well intended people have been led to believe is actually in earnest, as suggested by articles such as this piece in the Atlantic.
Or this NBC News piece, underscored by the cartoon image of the “vaccine hesitant” family running fearfully from the dripping syringe.
And if you haven’t heard, WHO has even listed “vaccine hesitancy” as one of the top ten threats to global health in 2019! Yes, folks, humanity has finally reached the point at which asking questions threatens its very existence! Did you think you’d live to see the day?
But the most blatant tactic in creating a divide between folks on this issue––and ensuring that reasonable questions about vaccines won’t even be heard––is this 17 minute “How to Defeat the Anti-Vax Movement” video by YouTuber David Pakman.
In this presentation, Pakman repeats
CDC and WHO talking points about the safety of vaccines, but never
once cites any studies about vaccines themselves. Instead, he spends
much of the presentation detailing “sociological and psychological
surveys” of the “vaccine hesitant.” If you buy into this
narrative, you’ll assume those with concerns about vaccines are
simply rebellious conspiracy theorists who are squeamish about
needles, “don’t value science” or “don’t even understand how
This video, like the print articles, advises that employing facts and data to dissuade the “vaccine hesitant” won’t work, and that more “subtle” strategies should be employed. This includes appealing to emotion, using comedy––and targeting children through video games. Packman quotes this article in Human Vaccines and Immunotherapeutics:
‘We believe that public health efforts to address issues of vaccine hesitancy should increase their focus on childhood education. An opportunity exists to create positive, accurate vaccine attitudes through fun and interactive approaches early in life. Leveraging digital technologies may provide a way to deliver these messages to children in a way that complements immune system and immunization education in school curricula. We recommend that public health officials explore and identify the most effective ways to deliver positive digital messages to children in hopes of “inoculating” the next generation against vaccine hesitancy.’
Pakman covers this strategy and more in his video. Folks whose children play video games may be interested to know that pharma titan GlaxoSmithKline is collaborating with one of the video game companies in such efforts. Check out the video.
Actual censorship is being liberally and openly practiced now in the US, and there is certainly a great deal of effort, study, funding and strategy being employed to counter the anti-vaccine movement. But none of it will work.
I know what will. And I’m willing to
share this information with everyone concerned about “vaccine
hesitancy.” I’m going to share this from the perspective of an
actual “vaccine hesitant.” Wait for it. Wait for it…Ready?
Finally, how can we reconcile CDC’s vaccine schedule and increasing vaccine mandates with the hundreds of peer-reviewed, published articles implicating vaccines in the rise of the childhood epidemics we are currently experiencing in the U.S. and other industrialized nations?
It is troubling for any of us to suspect that our regulatory agencies––the very agencies which were put in place on our behalf––may not be doing their jobs. It is disconcerting, to say the least, to conclude that we cannot trust everything they have told us. It is disheartening to realize that conflicts of interest and industry money may have corrupted our regulatory agencies and our legislatures.
But silencing questions, avoiding the
discussion and pretending that such concerns are invalid will not
solve the problem. Focusing on the psychology and sociological
demographic of those asking the questions will only temporarily
distract us from the real problem. We must hold our regulatory
agencies accountable. We must demand transparency. And we must
uncover the truth.
We, the “vaccine hesitant,” are
willing to do the work it takes to get these agencies back on track.
We will do the research. We will ask the tough questions. And we will
take them to task and make them work for you again.